Any plans to stock up before FDA regulation or PACT kick in?

[chadizzy1]

The answer here is simple. PACT and the FDA rules won't matter if Swedish Match sets up a plant in the US and simply produces to their existing standards. That should keep the FDA and the PACT people quiet. Once they are in the US making Snus the Camel Crap won't stand a chance. Retail stores will carry it since they wont have to import it. Of course our taxes will go up but thats life.

Only 2 things you can rely on death and taxes.

if this happens, i hope 3 things happen.

1.) FDA mandates tobacco as they do in Sweden and regards it as a "food" as they do over there.
2.) they import their own workers, or the people there are trained in the EXACT way the people in Sweden are.
3.) they import tobacco. you gotta wonder how american grown tobacco will taste.... Sweden is a COMPLETELY different environment and the tobacco is grown in a different climate.

[Code2]

re

chadizzy1:
I was just thinking recently it would be great if there were a tobacco-users lobby, not connected to the tobacco companies. I'd be interested in supporting it, although I really doubt there's enough influence to be had against the forces of nanny-statism.

snusdog:
Good post to the SM guys. I'm very interested in seeing a response if they feel like they can comment on it at this time.

Edit: Since I may have to rely on US Camels:
I don't hate the US Camels, I just wish they'd do some more work on it and come out with some stouter, less-sweet varieties. Maybe they're doing just that. At least I give them credit for making snus known in the US. I'm surprised by the number of people (usually younger males) I run into who've heard of snus because of Camel.

As always, I sure do enjoy this forum - keep up the good work y'all.

[justintempler]

3.) they import tobacco. you gotta wonder how american grown tobacco will taste.... Sweden is a COMPLETELY different environment and the tobacco is grown in a different climate.

ummm...

There is very little Swedish grown tobacco in Swedish snus.

infact I'm willing to bet Swedish Match uses way more American grown tobacco then they do Swedish. Swedish Match uses tobacco grown from all over the world.

[spirit72]

Guys, I wouldn't worry about stocking up just yet.

The full text of HR1256 as it was passed is here:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...7q7FYC:e63265:

I don't have the time or inclination to go over it point by point. But, please read it with comprehension, clause by clause.

PACT, for its part, is a draconian, ridiculous, unconstitutional law. I very seriously doubt that the Senate will pass it in its current form. If they do, I seriously doubt the Supreme Court will uphold it(the Supreme Court is in fact not currently 'controlled by Democrats').

But THIS one is nowhere near the nuclear blast it is made out by some to be---unless you're a smoker, and particularly if you're an RYO smoker(yes, you guys got screwed, and it had been coming down the pipe for years).

One thing you'll find is that many of the powers over tobacco that the FDA will be given are LARGELY THE SAME POWERS THAT THE SWEDISH GOVERNMENT HAS OVER TOBACCO

It does not provide for the ban of tobacco or nicotine in any form. In fact, it PROHIBITS the FDA from banning tobacco or nicotine, and prohibits the FDA from lowering nicotine yield to zero:

`(3) LIMITATION ON POWER GRANTED TO THE FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION- Because of the importance of a decision of the Secretary to issue a regulation--

`(A) banning all cigarettes, all smokeless tobacco products, all little cigars, all cigars other than little cigars, all pipe tobacco, or all roll-your-own tobacco products; or

`(B) requiring the reduction of nicotine yields of a tobacco product to zero,

the Secretary is prohibited from taking such actions under this Act.


It is weighted heavily towards regulation of cigarettes.

The flavor bans, in fact, only apply to cigarettes:

`(A) SPECIAL RULE FOR CIGARETTES- Beginning 3 months after the date of enactment of the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act, a cigarette or any of its component parts (including the tobacco, filter, or paper) shall not contain, as a constituent (including a smoke constituent) or additive, an artificial or natural flavor (other than tobacco or menthol) or an herb or spice, including strawberry, grape, orange, clove, cinnamon, pineapple, vanilla, coconut, licorice, cocoa, chocolate, cherry, or coffee, that is a characterizing flavor of the tobacco product or tobacco smoke. Nothing in this subparagraph shall be construed to limit the Secretary's authority to take action under this section or other sections of this Act applicable to menthol or any artificial or natural flavor, herb, or spice not specified in this subparagraph.


Snus will still be available in the US. Swedish Match has been making it available at certain retailers since at least last year, and it is substantially equivalent to American snuff. The only difference is the method of preparation. Check this out, especially section B:

`(a) In General-

`(1) NEW TOBACCO PRODUCT DEFINED- For purposes of this section the term `new tobacco product' means--

`(A) any tobacco product (including those products in test markets) that was not commercially marketed in the United States as of February 15, 2007; or

`(B) any modification (including a change in design, any component, any part, or any constituent, including a smoke constituent, or in the content, delivery or form of nicotine, or any other additive or ingredient) of a tobacco product where the modified product was commercially marketed in the United States after February 15, 2007.

`(2) PREMARKET REVIEW REQUIRED-

`(A) NEW PRODUCTS- An order under subsection (c)(1)(A)(i) for a new tobacco product is required unless--

`(i) the manufacturer has submitted a report under section 905(j); and the Secretary has issued an order that the tobacco product--

`(I) is substantially equivalent to a tobacco product commercially marketed (other than for test marketing) in the United States as of February 15, 2007; and

`(II) is in compliance with the requirements of this Act; or

`(ii) the tobacco product is exempt from the requirements of section 905(j) pursuant to a regulation issued under section 905(j)(3).

`(B) APPLICATION TO CERTAIN POST-FEBRUARY 15, 2007, PRODUCTS- Subparagraph (A) shall not apply to a tobacco product--

`(i) that was first introduced or delivered for introduction into interstate commerce for commercial distribution in the United States after February 15, 2007, and prior to the date that is 21 months after the date of enactment of the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act; and

`(ii) for which a report was submitted under section 905(j) within such 21-month period,

except that subparagraph (A) shall apply to the tobacco product if the Secretary issues an order that the tobacco product is not substantially equivalent.

`(3) SUBSTANTIALLY EQUIVALENT DEFINED-

`(A) IN GENERAL- In this section and section 905(j), the term `substantially equivalent' or `substantial equivalence' means, with respect to the tobacco product being compared to the predicate tobacco product, that the Secretary by order has found that the tobacco product--

`(i) has the same characteristics as the predicate tobacco product; or

`(ii) has different characteristics and the information submitted contains information, including clinical data if deemed necessary by the Secretary, that demonstrates that it is not appropriate to regulate the product under this section because the product does not raise different questions of public health.

`(B) CHARACTERISTICS- In subparagraph (A), the term `characteristics' means the materials, ingredients, design, composition, heating source, or other features of a tobacco product.

`(C) LIMITATION- A tobacco product may not be found to be substantially equivalent to a predicate tobacco product that has been removed from the market at the initiative of the Secretary or that has been determined by a judicial order to be misbranded or adulterated.


Keep in mind, like Sage and others have mentioned, that this still has to pass the Senate.

And then, Obama has to sign it, which is inevitable.

But THEN, you can fully expect that RJR, Lorillard, Liggett, and every single tobacco company besides PM will challenge it in Federal court, which could potentially land it in the Supreme Court.

The same will be true of PACT, which in my opinion is unconstitutional as passed in the House.

Now don't get me wrong---if PACT is passed and upheld, I'm going to make several $200 orders in quick succession, just to be safe.

BUT, the worst-case scenario with PACT is that we will no longer be able to import snus from Sweden over the Internets. Swedish Match has the wherewithal to manufacture and distribute its entire line domestically, and has indeed confirmed plans to do so, at least with the General line. So, you will still be able to purchase snus, but you may have to do it at a retailer, and you will sure as hell be paying tax either way.

[sagedil]

I will happily pay whatever taxes is necessary. I am still saving money compared to when I smoked. Death, taxes, will be with us always, why fight that inevitable.

[snupy]

Now don't get me wrong---if PACT is passed and upheld, I'm going to make several $200 orders in quick succession, just to be safe.

BINGO!

So, you will still be able to purchase snus, but you may have to do it at a retailer, and you will sure as hell be paying tax either way.

Naaa, I REFUSE to pay the tax. I just need enough snus on hand until I have 'grow your own tobacco' and 'make your own snus' down. I already have a VERY good supplier of flavoring extracts as well. (MMMMMMMM! Pomegranate!) Besides, the only local suppliers around here charge OUTRAGEOUS prices for tobacco, so screw them.

[spirit72]

I will happily pay whatever taxes is necessary. I am still saving money compared to when I smoked. Death, taxes, will be with us always, why fight that inevitable.

I don't mind the taxes all that much, per se. If I can evade it legally--which is largely what we've been doing---then I will. If that door gets closed, so be it.

What really gets me is that they're trying to prevent the shipping of a legal(albeit regulated and age-restricted)product to consumers under the guise of thwarting terrorism. That is the most retarded thing I've heard from the U.S. government in ages, and the fact that they expect us to receive it with a straight face speaks volumes.

[snupy]

What really gets me is that they're trying to prevent the shipping of a legal(albeit regulated and age-restricted)product to consumers under the guise of thwarting terrorism.

The only 'terrorism' thwarted by this legislation is the terrorism of shortfalls in tobacco tax revenue. These idiots jack up tobacco taxes so high that a black market is created, per classic economic theory. So this legislation becomes necessary to 'cure' the black markets government itself created.

[TheDonk13]

I won't lie, I made a solid purchase that will get me through the next year. I use maybe 3/4 of a can a week. I have 40 in the freezer and 45 more on the way. In fact, I hope you guys don't hate me for this, but I ordered the LAST roll of Thunder Frosted from "getsnus" last night. I purchased 2 rolls, 1 is being shipped and the other is on back order! SORRY! Just thought it was funny that I was the one who nabbed the last one.

ViVa la SNUS! We shall have a snuvolution! boston tea party style, but instead of tea, we should throw politicians over board, and instead of boston, do it in the middle of Bering Sea!

[HK11]

Just dont buy all the ettan and N&J. Everything else is fair game.

[HK11]

I will happily pay whatever taxes is necessary. I am still saving money compared to when I smoked. Death, taxes, will be with us always, why fight that inevitable.

The only problem I have is that there is nowhere with like 7hrs that even has snus.

[ace]

Guys, I wouldn't worry about stocking up just yet.

spirit72, I just want to say thank you for taking the time to make that post.

[Mohave]

This is just not true at all:

The answer here is simple. PACT and the FDA rules won't matter if Swedish Match sets up a plant in the US and simply produces to their existing standards. That should keep the FDA and the PACT people quiet. Once they are in the US making Snus the Camel Crap won't stand a chance. Retail stores will carry it since they wont have to import it. Of course our taxes will go up but thats life.

Only 2 things you can rely on death and taxes.

Tobacco products including snus will NOT be allowed to be introduced to the US market, unless they were already here before February 15, 2007. "New" products which do not meet the cutoff date will be subject to premarket review by the FDA, and approval for any such products is very unlikely to be granted.

They are not quiet about snus now, and they won't suddenly become quiet about it later. They intend to kill them. They said so again, loudly, day before yesterday on the Senate floor, whether you choose to hear it or not. And the main push for this comes from an organization called the Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids, with enthusiastic support from political figures eager to take on the role of "protecting" you from evil businesses who want to sell you stuff. And protect you is just what they are going to do, even if it kills you.

I currently have about 90 frozen tins stockpiled, or a little less than 9 rolls worth, and intend to put away about twice that number, or around 20 full rolls. There will be time, but experience with other recent legal changes affecting other tobacco products teaches that those who wait 'till just a month or two before the end will most likely find themselves cut off due to supply chain disruptions caused by a surge of panic buying. I am buying at a rate that will complete my stash within about 2-3 months from now.

I am concerned about how long I can really expect them to remain good while hard frozen for a long time. I suspect some may hold up better than others, but I really don't know how to estimate that.

[sagedil]

Tobacco products including snus will NOT be allowed to be introduced to the US market, unless they were already here before February 15, 2007.

Define "here before February 15,2007". Northerner has been in business for 10 years shipping snus to the United States among other places. So snus has been here a long time. More importantly, it was even made here 100 years ago. And another question, American dip has been here forever, is snus "legally" different than dip.


Guess what folks, this law will be tied up in the courts for a long, long time. How you interpret it will be decided in the end by judges. Even if it passes, and even if it is interpreted as strictly as some fear, it will be a long time before it affects us. Because of the economic damage it would cause, no way a judge will let it be applied until ALL the answers about it are resolved. am betting at least 5 years

[justintempler]

Define "here before February 15,2007"....

spirit72's post already covered it

this one sticks out

`(I) is substantially equivalent to a tobacco product commercially marketed (other than for test marketing) in the United States as of February 15, 2007;....

Swedish Match was already here marketing snus as of that date.

Snus ain't going anywhere.