What will the future hold?

[Messiah]

The majority of the taxes on tobacco are still state taxes, no?

[HK11]

The majority of the taxes on tobacco are still state taxes, no?

Thats a good question, and Im gonna check that out. Arkansas state taxes on tobacco were not that bad prior to the hike.

Honestly state taxes, while I dont enjoy them, do not irritate me as bad as federal taxes. I've just been pissy lately about most everything revolving around government so I am liable to throw out some caustic shit without thinking.

[chainsnuser]

This future law makes me shiver, because it could become a model for the EU.

BTW,

(2) Hezbollah, Hamas, al Qaeda, and other terrorist organizations have profited from trafficking in illegal cigarettes or counterfeit cigarette tax stamps;

(3) terrorist involvement in illicit cigarette trafficking will continue to grow because of the large profits such organizations can earn;

This sounds not so different from medieval laws or Nazi-legislation. Replace terrorist with witches, demons and the antichrist, respectively some "evil" ethnic minorities and oppositional groups, and use them to justify any abomination and atrocity.

And this new law is an abomination IMHO.

Cheers!

[spirit72]

This future law makes me shiver, because it could become a model for the EU.

BTW,

(2) Hezbollah, Hamas, al Qaeda, and other terrorist organizations have profited from trafficking in illegal cigarettes or counterfeit cigarette tax stamps;

(3) terrorist involvement in illicit cigarette trafficking will continue to grow because of the large profits such organizations can earn;

This sounds not so different from medieval laws or Nazi-legislation. Replace terrorist with witches, demons and the antichrist, respectively some "evil" ethnic minorities and oppositional groups, and use them to justify any abomination and atrocity.

And this new law is an abomination IMHO.

Cheers!

It's interesting, because I'd like to actually **see** the evidence and figures of how much the 'terrorists' are raking in from peddling illegal smokes.

It's also interesting, because in the most radical sects of Islam--including the Wahabbis, which is the sect that Al-Qaeda subscribes to--cigarettes are supposedly a no-no, just like alcohol.

The U.S. Government also thought that Saddam Hussein was trying to score uranium from Nigeria. He wasn't.

[spirit72]

There is a Exception for smokeless.

Nope. Sorry to say it is not likely to be an exception for anything we would care about.

Yours is an intriguing read on it, and I'd like to believe it could somehow possibly mean that, but I think it is very likely that you are mistaken. That smokeless exception in 2A(d)(2) specifically and exclusively refers to the matter of how and when tax is to be collected (usually in advance at time of sale before picked up for shipment) in 2A(d)(1) immediately above it, and is therefore not an exception to the plethora of other byzantine provisions of the act, such as the ludicrous identification and age verification requirements using approved government databases upon delivery specified in 2A(b)(4), for example. The exception is written to avoid conflict with an individual state's laws on how and when their state taxes are taken. It appears quite clear to me that it does not reference other provisions in the rest of the draconian act in making that exception. It is only an exception to that paragraph, and is not particularly important except to avoid making a state change its individual tax procedure. You have to carefully follow the indentations of cascading subparagraphs to note the severe limitation on the scope of that esoteric "exception."

No, I'm reading it the same way justintempler is. They're basically saying that when it comes to smokeless, they will have to abide by state and local laws as far as the collection of any applicable excise tax at the point of sale.

Since most State laws differ pretty wildly, it would make an accounting nightmare for vendors like Northerner or BuySnus for sure. New York, for instance, taxes tobacco straight to hell. Pennsylvania doesn't tax smokeless tobacco at all, aside from the normal sales tax.

The other clauses that it doesn't apply to suck, sure, but not necessarily a deal breaker. Ok, myself or my wife may have to sign for it and prove our age, but...well, whatever makes them feel better, I guess.

It'll be interesting to see where this goes in the Senate. It definitely calls for letters from any and all tobacco users.

If it does pass, we know Obama will ink it, even though it would make him the biggest hypocrite in the U.S.

[Mohave]

The other clauses that it doesn't apply to suck, sure, but not necessarily a deal breaker. Ok, myself or my wife may have to sign for it and prove our age, but...well, whatever makes them feel better, I guess.

The "other clauses that it doesn't apply to" comprise the purpose of the bill. The "exception" theoretically allows someone to collect tax at the door instead of in advance of shipment in some jurisdictions where necessary for existing local law. It is meaningless. It exempts local governments from having to make their tax procedures uniform and consistent, and does not substantively exempt the product from anything.

Got any idea what sort of delivery enterprise might possibly be able and willing to comply with the elaborate identity verification requirements, more stringent than what is required to purchase a case of whiskey, under penalty of felony prosecution? There is none, and there isn't ever going to be one. And at what sort of cost? Care for a roll of Thunder Frosted at $28.95 + $387.25 for international delivery and verification fees?

The deal is about to get very broken. That is the explicit intent of the supporters.

[varg]

So what about tobacco shops here that carry General? Would they still be allowed to do so?

[gitchel]

Should be interesting for us in Iowa, since the state doesn't tax smokless tobacco unless you posess over 10 ounces.

Perhaps they'll tax orders in excess of 10 ounces?

Or maybe they'll have to check my fridge.

[justintempler]

So what about tobacco shops here that carry General? Would they still be allowed to do so?

Yes,

The bill is about closing tax loopholes that let you buy tobacco via the internet without paying taxes. $$$$$$$

The dangerous part of the bill is it sets a precedent of taxing products sold over the internet. So after tobacco what are they going to go after next?

[Mohave]

Since I have been the messenger of doom here, I'll add a slightly cheerful note. Although it says 90 days, that will be 90 days in government time. They will have to hire staff (through the elaborate civil service process) to implement it, draft administrative rules, publish them in the Federal Register for comment, republish the final detailed rules and procedures, etc.

So, our demise is coming, but at the speed of government work. Doom will take months.

Have a nice day.

[justintempler]

One thing I do suggest....

Try all the varieties of snus that are not made by Swedish Match.

Swedish Match does have a distribution system here in the states so we will always be able to get their products at retail as long as snus is sold.
While I don't believe there will be a total ban, I do forsee products that don't have someone to distribute them in the US becoming unavailable.

Especially products like, Camel from Japan Tobacco International. It will never be sold in US stores because it would infringe on RJR's domestic Camel trademark. So if you like Camel (JTI) you better stock up before any ban goes into effect.

[Mohave]

Try all the varieties of snus that are not made by Swedish Match.

I think that is wise, and is why I'm looking into procuring a hugemongous feezer. Along with any of the Swedish Match tobacco products which were not already on the market in the US prior to February 2007, and any with flavorings. Other legislation near passage. Worse. I won't even go there.

[TBD]

One thing I do suggest....

Try all the varieties of snus that are not made by Swedish Match.

Swedish Match does have a distribution system here in the states so we will always be able to get their products at retail as long as snus is sold.
While I don't believe there will be a total ban, I do forsee products that don't have someone to distribute them in the US becoming unavailable.

Especially products like, Camel from Japan Tobacco International. It will never be sold in US stores because it would infringe on RJR's domestic Camel trademark. So if you like Camel (JTI) you better stock up before any ban goes into effect.

I wouldn't worry to much about that. SM now handles most , like 80% of the snus distribution now. If there is demand I'm sure they will bring other brands to the US. Also I'm sure someone is planning ahead to be on the leading edge of snus in the US. The US is the biggest snus market going right now and will stay that way until the EU unbans it.

[Kvlt]

The last American revolution occurred because of tea. This one might form from tobacco.
Guys have your rifles ready?

So in less than 90 days, are we going to see a tax hike on snus?

[spirit72]

So in less than 90 days, are we going to see a tax hike on snus?

Keep the safety on, Tex! It has to pass the Senate yet. :wink: