The greatest President in 100 years

[GoVegan]

You sound like a man who could really use some buffalo wings. The fundamental flaw of unions is they seek to extort more than the free market dictates and extortion is always wrong. More practically and specifically, they have have killed Detroit by demanding $80 and hour for unskilled labor and fully paid "lay offs" etc with no regard for the end result or quality of the finished product. Even their original purpose is unnecessary in our modern information age. If you have there companies building cars, and one attempts to treat their works unfairly, how long would it be before word got out and boycotts ensued? Many have attempted this with Walmart, but it has been largely unsuccessful because most Americans believe Walmart treats its employees fairly and on par with comparable employment elsewhere.

Modern unions are little more than political action committees who extract money, from workers, which is used to promote politics which are contrary to the best interests of the aforementioned worker. Their current support of illegal immigration is one example.

I have known several people who have worked at Wal Mart and they do not pay a livable wage. Wal Mart workers can make it by because the government can make up for the employers cheapness by offering subsidized health care, childcare and Food Stamp benefits which we ultimately pay for through taxes. Unions are not perfect but they exist for a reason. Minor children working 14 hours a day, people dying in factory accidents and companies trying to control every aspect of your life are why unions exist today. Many of the labor laws that benefit and protect you were the direct result of union action. I am union, I work hard, attend extensive professional training year round, make LARGE contributions to my medical and pension plans and make no where near $80.00 an hour.

[timholian]

/off topic
bsd777, I was wondering if you would mind not quadruple posting every time you respond to a thread. It just annoying and happens almost every time you post. You can edit your original post by hitting the edit button on the bottom right of the reply box. Thanks

[Jimbob_Rebel]

I have known several people who have worked at Wal Mart and they do not pay a livable wage. Wal Mart workers can make it by because the government can make up for the employers cheapness by offering subsidized health care, childcare and Food Stamp benefits which we ultimately pay for through taxes. Unions are not perfect but they exist for a reason. Minor children working 14 hours a day, people dying in factory accidents and companies trying to control every aspect of your life are why unions exist today. Many of the labor laws that benefit and protect you were the direct result of union action. I am union, I work hard, attend extensive professional training year round, make LARGE contributions to my medical and pension plans and make no where near $80.00 an hour.

I'm union and don't even know of any bargaining unit employees who score $80 per hour. Unions have been a favored whipping boy of those who wish to explain the failure of crony capitalism in the U.S.. I'm sure unions have played a role just as everyone else involved has, but a union contract is just that with two parties involved. Japanese workers enjoy one of the highest standards of living in the world and yet Toyota makes a profit. I don't doubt that the japs use tariffs to keep their workers out of direct competition with slave labor in china and we might do the same if our representatives were representing us. I believe in free markets within national borders but have no desire to see americans living like chinese peasants.

Regarding Wal-Mart, they are beneficiaries of our welfare state with the taxpayer subsidizing the wages of their employees as GoVegan pointed out.

[bsd777]

I have known several people who have worked at Wal Mart and they do not pay a livable wage. Wal Mart workers can make it by because the government can make up for the employers cheapness by offering subsidized health care, childcare and Food Stamp benefits which we ultimately pay for through taxes. Unions are not perfect but they exist for a reason. Minor children working 14 hours a day, people dying in factory accidents and companies trying to control every aspect of your life are why unions exist today. Many of the labor laws that benefit and protect you were the direct result of union action. I am union, I work hard, attend extensive professional training year round, make LARGE contributions to my medical and pension plans and make no where near $80.00 an hour.

No less "livable" than the wage they'd receive at ACE, Costco, Ralphs, CVS, Walgreens etc. The market wage for unskilled labor. The manager makes decent coin, as does the pharmacist. Life isn't easy, but it's a lot easier with an education and marketable skills. You are only worth what value you bring to the final product. No one owes you anything.

I didn't say all union workers made $80 an hour, just that some unskilled, uneducated autoworkers do, or did. Obviously well above their true worth and unsustainable.

[Jimbob_Rebel]

Agree. He was a bit of a confused leftist. The product of a drug and anti-war culture which mistakenly believed the leftists/statists equaled individual freedom.

But the author wasn't comparing the two. He described the writer as a CROSS between Coulter and Thompson. Meaning they displayed characteristics from both.

I'd assumed he was referring to style of writing which would have nothing to do ideological perspective. I seldom agree with Gore Vidal but I enjoy his writing.

[GoVegan]

No less "livable" than the wage they'd receive at ACE, Costco, Ralphs, CVS, Walgreens etc. The market wage for unskilled labor. The manager makes decent coin, as does the pharmacist. Life isn't easy, but it's a lot easier with an education and marketable skills. You are only worth what value you bring to the final product. No one owes you anything.

I didn't say all union workers made $80 an hour, just that some unskilled, uneducated autoworkers do, or did. Obviously well above their true worth and unsustainable.

There are probably less unskilled union workers making $80.00 an hour than there are crappy CEO's making millions while running their companies to the ground. All those places you have names have scores of workers that are dependent on government run assistance programs to make ends meet. Maybe what your thinking is that unless your a manager making "decent coin" you don't deserve to have children, get health care when needed and retire eventually. I am not sure about you but I worked very hard to get where I am. 5 years in the military and 4 years in college while working a graveyard shift eventually got me my union job. Now all I need is to make $80.00 an hour.

[bsd777]

/off topic
bsd777, I was wondering if you would mind not quadruple posting every time you respond to a thread. It just annoying and happens almost every time you post. You can edit your original post by hitting the edit button on the bottom right of the reply box. Thanks

weird. am i the only one that sees one post? everybody else sees triplicates?

[timholian]

weird. am i the only one that sees one post? everybody else sees triplicates?

I am talking about sharing all of your ideas at once instead of sharing them one at a time before anyone else has a chance to respond. Its no big deal, just annoying.

[bsd777]

I am talking about sharing all of your ideas at once instead of sharing them one at a time before anyone else has a chance to respond. Its no big deal, just annoying.

i feel you pain, but maybe we should have a poll? I'm responding to an individual and their specific points. If I put it all together it'd be very long. And if I asked for feedback, the majority might ask me to stop posting altogether! and that might hurt my feelings. also, i tend to be away for longer periods of time and when I get back to the forum have a lot to respond to.
Like now, I'm out. I'll argue with you leftists later!!! Have a good afternoon!!!!

[danielan]

I'm responding to an individual and their specific points.

I think it is easier to follow if it is individual responses.

Multi-quoting works well, IMO, for multiple responses to one person, but it messes up the threaded view when you do it for multiple responses to multiple people.

If you change the display at the top to threaded view sometimes it makes more sense.

[shikitohno]

No, I asked you about that in another thread, but it died off before anyone else read it. I typically don't care for your politics (except the anomaly of the rioting in Oakland thread where we agreed on something), but you've got every right to post things as long as you keep it civil, which by and large you do. Between you and me, things rarely devolve into endless name-calling for three or four pages. Still, it's just part of general forum etiquette. If no one has replied to the thread between your last post and the next time you want to add something, it's generally considered polite to edit your post. Besides, we don't get too many idiots who just post tl;dr, so a wall of text isn't really an issue. It keeps the board looking less cluttered, and helps keep down artificial post count inflation (and yes, there are some who brag about how many posts they have on forums).

About persecution complexes, the left and right both have them, and have for a long time. I think it's partly because of the dichotomous nature of politics today, where things are painted as black and white. People see one party as 100% right, and the other as 100% wrong, despite the fact that we know that's not true. Many people will dismiss what Palin or Obama says out of hand because "he's a commie" or "she's a gun-toting idiot" despite that having nothing to do with the merit of their ideas. A good idea is a good idea no matter who comes up with it. If Kim Jong-Il pointed out a brilliant solution to solving the US' problems, it would still be a brilliant idea despite it having come from a despicable person. It irks me that people can't simply move past party lines and consider ideas based on merit rather than political orientation of the guy who came up with it.

[GoVegan]

No, I asked you about that in another thread, but it died off before anyone else read it. I typically don't care for your politics (except the anomaly of the rioting in Oakland thread where we agreed on something), but you've got every right to post things as long as you keep it civil, which by and large you do. Between you and me, things rarely devolve into endless name-calling for three or four pages. Still, it's just part of general forum etiquette. If no one has replied to the thread between your last post and the next time you want to add something, it's generally considered polite to edit your post. Besides, we don't get too many idiots who just post tl;dr, so a wall of text isn't really an issue. It keeps the board looking less cluttered, and helps keep down artificial post count inflation (and yes, there are some who brag about how many posts they have on forums).

About persecution complexes, the left and right both have them, and have for a long time. I think it's partly because of the dichotomous nature of politics today, where things are painted as black and white. People see one party as 100% right, and the other as 100% wrong, despite the fact that we know that's not true. Many people will dismiss what Palin or Obama says out of hand because "he's a commie" or "she's a gun-toting idiot" despite that having nothing to do with the merit of their ideas. A good idea is a good idea no matter who comes up with it. If Kim Jong-Il pointed out a brilliant solution to solving the US' problems, it would still be a brilliant idea despite it having come from a despicable person. It irks me that people can't simply move past party lines and consider ideas based on merit rather than political orientation of the guy who came up with it.

You just nailed it! That is the whole problem with politics. We are no longer looking at the feasibility of ideas but rather where they came from. Wasn't it not long ago under Bush that the Republicans were talking about amnesty for undocumented immigrants as part of their immigration reform package? Were the Republicans not spending money like crazy during their reign claiming that we are at war and needs to spend money to help fight that war? Now the tables have been turned and the Republicans have switched their positions. In my own opinion, McCain was a pretty honorable person until he picked some clown to be his running mate. What the hell was he thinking? Back to the subject. Shikitohno you are correct in realizing that good ideas can come from anywhere and it would be very wise if we would start focusing on outcomes rather than the source of a particular idea.

[GoVegan]

BTW bsd777 I went looking for your $80.00 an hour job because if some unskilled laborer is making $80.00 an hour I want in on that action. Despite my search efforts I could not find this promised land you speak of. I found some 2008 data indicating that the average auto worker makes $29.00 an hour. A respectable wage no doubt but still not anywhere near this $80.00 an hour job I would like to apply for if I can find it. Perhaps you were talking about labor costs which averaged about $75.00 an hour for an auto worker. This includes the costs of medical, retirement, bonuses, dependent benefits and things like that. Yes this is significant but not quite the same as making $80.00 an hour. I also found out that labor costs account for only 10% of a vehicles purchase price.

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactchec...more_than.html

What killed the American auto industry was not the unions but the fact that we were producing unreliable gas guzzlers during a time when gas costs $4.00 a gallon. We can't even say that we were caught off guard. The American auto makers were laughing at those tiny Toyota's and Nissan's that were selling like crazy during the oil embargo of the 70's calling those tiny cars a trend that will eventually go away. Who is laughing now?

[danielan]

What killed the American auto industry was...

Weren't we going to replace all of the auto-workers with robots like 20 some years ago?

Whatever happened to that plan?

[sgreger1]

Weren't we going to replace all of the auto-workers with robots like 20 some years ago?

Whatever happened to that plan?

Mexicans are cheaper than robots maybe?