For all who serve or have served .....

[Condor]

We think in so completely different ways. I don't think I can communicate with you, at least not on the subject of politics.

That may be so. That is becuase I'm not talking politics right now. And it’s not that I don’t understand some of what you’re saying. However, the forum you picked to write a full blown essay attacking servicemen was a thread dedicated to one of two days Americans traditionally reflect on the sacrifices of those in the military. So, by choosing this thread to claim servicemen to be mindless sheep, devoid of fortitude and enslaved by their masters, was affront to my country. A country that has recently buried 4,000 of her sons and daughters since the day 3,000 men, women and children were massacred.

Hell, for what its worth, I believe meditating on the loss of life and the ultimate sacrifice, as we Americans do on Veterans and Memorial Day, probably cause Americans to question war more, not become the nationalistic dumb asses you claim we all are.

I’m guessing you don’t choose a mosque during Ramadan as a forum to discuss your love for Dawkins and Atheism.

Another example: if you one day chose to do something really stupid that leads to your own untimely death, I would never use that day’s anniversary, the day your family grieves for your loss, as a day to remind everyone how stupid you were. No, out of common decency, I would wait for another day to lambaste the stupidity of, say, your hobby of playing “bus frogger” in London while huffing NO2.

But, then again, I know, that you know, you were being an asshole for asshole’s sake. We might be oil and water, but neither of us stupid.


I would go as far as to say you owe the snus.on community an apology. Particularly a moderator, one who, in at least some ways, represents all of us as a sort of diverse community. But I’m guessing hell would freeze over first.


Even if I agreed with you, which I don’t, I still would have a responded the same way.

Don’t tread on the grieving moms, dads and wives of my country.

You’re a smart man. You’re just not an honorable one.

well spake.

[kidstaxi]

We think in so completely different ways. I don't think I can communicate with you, at least not on the subject of politics.

I will not get into a debate with you...It is obvious, I would lose.

I believe in the freedom of speech, expression, and a opinion. But, I also believe in freedom of using common sense. This is an area in which you have zero knowledge of.

For you to comment on an American Holiday and not be an American, proves you have zero common sense. For you to completly Hijack this thread also proves you are a self centered person who will take any oppurnity to spread your agendas..

As a current member of the USMC and a Veteran of multiple Tours of Duty in variuos parts of the globe. You are one person I would like to meet face to face.

If, I shoveled Elephant dung at the zoo, I would feel the same way..

If you run your mouth in public, like you do behind your laptop, you will be hurting one day.

However, I will agree with you on one thing.. MY COUNTRY, should withdraw from ever coner of the globe. Put our troops along our borders and watch the rest of the world kill each other off.

[Jason]

I normally try and stay out of threads when they rapidly degrade like this, but I just wanted to throw my .02 cents in one more time.

This is why I celebrate Veteran's Day...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfK2BQCIIes

This guy threw himself onto a grenade and sacrificed his life. Why? I'm fairly sure that he did not do it because of orders, politics, personal glory, the media, the president, democracy, crude oil, etc....

He did it to save the lives of his brothers, and I'm sure they probably would have done the same for him. That really is the true essence of Veteran's Day in my opinion....

[sentry103]

To give your life for another is the greatest love of all.

[Zero]

For you to comment on an American Holiday and not be an American, proves you have zero common sense.

An American holiday?? Are you serious? Do you even know what WWI was? Do know what "Armistice Day" refers to?

[Zero]

To give your life for another is the greatest love of all.

And how many did that honourable soldier kill? How many women? Children? If we simply calculate a statistical probability, it's a hell of a lot. The blood of innocents flows like rainwater in the streets of Iraq.

And for what? To stop the Iraqis from invading the US? To protect the citizens of the most powerful Empire on earth from a broken and starving regime with no ability whatsoever to project military power beyond its borders?

This is what I'm talking about. You need perspective. It's not good enough to look at an isolated incident of some guy being selfless without looking at the bigger picture of how the situation came into being in the first place. How much honour is there in mugging a defenseless country?

[justintempler]

For you to comment on an American Holiday and not be an American, proves you have zero common sense.

An American holiday?? Are you serious? Do you even know what WWI was? Do know what "Armistice Day" refers to?

The ignorance of some Americans!!!! (it hurts)

[kidstaxi]

For you to comment on an American Holiday and not be an American, proves you have zero common sense.

An American holiday?? Are you serious? Do you even know what WWI was? Do know what "Armistice Day" refers to?

The ignorance of some Americans!!!! (it hurts)

I know the difference between Veterans and Armistice Day.. I know they fall on the same day...

I also know the meaning and spirit of Steele Blue 91... But, Zero has to turn it into Down With the USA..Like he does in every other thread...

[Zero]

But, Zero has to turn it into Down With the USA..Like he does in every other thread...

If you think that's what this is about then you're not paying attention. I think I pretty clearly placed the blame for the first world war on clashing European expansionism.

[Dead Rabbit]

But, Zero has to turn it into Down With the USA..Like he does in every other thread...

If you think that's what this is about then you're not paying attention. I think I pretty clearly placed the blame for the first world war on clashing European expansionism.

Perhaps Zero, although he would never admit it, is just somewhat lacking....drum roll....in having an understanding of American culture. Americans don't observe Veteran's Day as Armistice Day. Simple as that. So maybe we should excuse his lack of sensitivity due to his cultural ignorance on how Americans view Veterans day. From a European stand point, I'm sure Veterans Day is, for obvious reasons, much more steeped in the historic facts and thus, in some ways, much more politicized. Zero, I forgive you man. You can still be our moderator.

[Zero]

What's your point? This has nothing to do with America, nor was it ever intended to be. I originally made a point about the irony of the causes of the first world war and lamented the fact that the expansionist policies which led Germany and Britain to mutually lock horns is the same bullshit that countless countries, including America, Britain, even Canada, continue to engage in, increasingly so, themselves. It's about failing to recognise the historical and political significance of the day - whether or not that is entrenched in American culture is irrelevant. If it is, then it does explain why so many are getting upset, but I see it as being a problem everywhere, not just America. You say yourself that there is a lack of historical and political baggage associated with Veterans day - that's exactly what I'm talking about. If you're not remembering history and the politics of the day, then why bother?

It was a comment on the failure of society on a global level to learn the lessons which the past wars we are remembering should have taught us. It was a criticism of the fact that we are willing to praise and honour those who have been the instruments of destruction in the past while simultaneously having no desire whatsoever to learn anything positive from theirs deaths or to make any changes to our behaviour such that we avoid such conflict in the future.

We seem to be happy to continue pressing aggressively into our neighbours lands, to continue to bury our young men, and to continue to weep for their loss. Well - to what end?? We've had a hundred years to learn how to stop the shit, we just don't seem to want to. You seem to think that I'm some sort of inhuman monster with no feelings - truth be known it actually kills me inside to look around and see the suffering that humans continue to heave upon each other. That's why I feel so strongly about so many of these issues. I'm simply refusing to be a party to hypocracy.

My criticism was primarily not even directed at soldiers. I lament that they often have lacked the intelligence to understand the ways they were manipulated into conflict, but this was more directed at people today - the people who gave their two minutes of silence, who paused to mindlessly act out some part in a ritual, or who allowed themselves a moment of emotion to remember the past. To the people who do all this but, in a widespread epidemic of doublethink, utterly fail to connect its significance to the present day and continue to endorse, or at least passively ignore, policies which threaten to cause the very same thing all over again.


And DR - drop the moderator thing, please. Whatever status you feel it gives me, it's entirely in your imagination. The only reason it's there is so that I can delete spam - people selling viagra and shifting Nigerian trust funds, that's it. I am not affiliated with nor do I speak for this forum in any way, nor do I censor or moderate its contents. I'm the garbage man, and a volunteer at that, that's all. :lol:

[Subtilo]

Wow, spicy thread, guys ...

Oh well, speaking of soldiers - here's an old pic of yours truly, armed and somewhat ready :wink:

[snusjus]

I'm not trying to bash on veterans- I respect them for trying to serve the world and rid it of oppression, however, every war in the past century has been based on lies. The Vietnam War is the most obvious pre-planned imperialistic occupation; the Gulf of Tonkin "incident" was a disastrous attempt to fan the fires of patriotism in America get young men killed for political domination throughout the Eastern world. Anyone that has studied the Vietnam War knows it was a complete fraud duped on the American people. The most recent imperialistic occupation is Operation Iraqi Freedom. George W. Bush and Dick Cheney have admitted that Saddam Hussein quit obtaining uranium from Africa and weapons of mass destruction (which the U.S.A. supplied him) when the Soviet Union fell. Like I have said before, I fully respect veterans, and I donate part of my paycheck to veteran's funds; however, I detest the U.S. government for misleading these young men with fabricated lies to fight in the interest of world dominance and free-trade capitalism.

[Zero]

World dominance, yes, but I wouldn't say it's in support of free-market capitalism at all. They use those words, of course, but even the greatest stretch of imagination couldn't call our current global economy a free market. Not by a long shot. International serfdom is more like it.

[fedora]

This is certainly a lively conversation.

I would normally stay out of something like this - but had to at least add a few observations that I hope ALL of us CAN agree on:

1) War is hell.

2) Death is painful (to the dying and the living).

3) Unjust wars should not be fought.

4) Defense of a country is vital to that country's future (and thus its people).

5) A soldier in war is doing his job (and unless drafted
he can usually leave)

6) A job is a trust and duty and moral obligation and once
you commit to your job, you do it, or leave and do something
else.

Voltaire said (please don't argue by telling me Voltaire was....)

"I may not agree with what you say, but will defend to the death your
right to say it."

This, gentlemen, is what its all about. Soldiers defend that right. Zero defends that right.

You Vets have the pride of doing your job - no one but yourselves have to acknowledge it - that pride will be with you through eternity. Zero has the pride of his job - and it will live with him for eternity. No one need acknowledge that either but himself.

The Human condition can be awful or glorious - it is what you and me and everyone else on this planet makes it.