For all who serve or have served .....

[Zero]

And it is also the soldier who takes away freedom. I'm trying to make the point that it goes both ways, and that often (not always!) the soldiers we remember as "protecting freedom" were actually the ones doing the dirty work of damaging that freedom. WWI was Europe trying to kill each other over neurotic paranoia and greed. It does not deserve any fond memories. It's certainly regrettable, don't get me wrong, but I'm not about to be thankful that there are people willing to kill other people without understanding what they are doing or why they are doing it.

In an ideal world every soldier would fight only for just reasons - in defense. If every soldier did this, there would not be any war. Sadly, however, and arguably through no "fault" of their own, soldiers are often persuaded by the weakest of arguments to take up arms and kill their fellow men. Just look at the travesty in the Middle East - that's basically an echo of WWI, at least in terms of causes and failures, all over again. These men may have the best of intentions, and for that they can't be faulted, but the fact that they allow themselves to be convinced by broken logic, again, I stress, a failure of humanity in general, makes them as guilty as those who would command them. Befehl ist Befehl, as they say. Surely the SS were not the only ones whom we expected to live up to such standards. Perhaps I shouldn't single out soldiers. I loathe this quality of humans in general. Call it misanthropy, I suppose, but it ashames me to be a member of the species.

[snusfather]

"It is the soldier, not the reporter,
Who has given us freedom of the press.

It is the soldier, not the poet,
Who has given us freedom of speech.

It is the soldier, not the organizer,
Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.

It is the soldier, Who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag,
Who allows the protestor to burn the flag."


Have a nice day.

I must resrectfully speak out of turn Sir,

In America; liberties are taken by the people, not granted by the state (or it's soldiers). A freedom that is given can also be taken away at the givers whim and is therefor not a freedom at all (the "patriot act" comes to mind). Freedoms in America are only protected or established if they are exercised by people willing to so at a great personal cost (Labor movement, civil rights movements, womens sufferage, ect...) If the millitary (I'm not bashing the soldier here) took it's oath to defend agenst enemies to the Constitution both forigen and domestic seriously; the great personal cost of activity in these movements would be drasticly lessened. The Ludlow massacure of 1914 comes to mind as an example. Colarado national guardsmen were directed to machean gun striking miners and their families by the Governer of Colorado, who was known as Rockefeller's little cowboy.
I am a veteran and I venerate the lives and memories of my fellow soldiers, I blame them for nothing. However, I thank the ones who helped defend our freedoms by doing what was right in defience of a state/government that values greed and profits over human life or freedom.
I mean no one here any offence, I just wanted to exercise a freedom (in direct violation of the freedom crushing "alien and sedition act", which is still on the books.) and demonstate my own opinion.
-Kind regards & Happy Veteran's Day

[Starcadia]

To add some perspective to SB91's post, which is valid, it's the poets (in the broad sense) who give the soldiers something to fight for in the first place. Just sayin'. :wink:

[sentry103]

I wish I could articulate as well as some of you, but suffice it to say I'm not a writer. I'm a do-er.

Zero, I respect your right to your opinion. I don't respect the man who writes such a reply in a post that's supposed to be just a simple "thank you" to our / your vets. It's offensive and off topic.

[sentry103]

Dear brother veterans:

Thank you for your service and sacrifice. God be with you and your families.

[snusfather]

Dear brother veterans:

Thank you for your service and sacrifice. God be with you and your families.

You too

[Zero]

I wish I could articulate as well as some of you, but suffice it to say I'm not a writer. I'm a do-er.

Zero, I respect your right to your opinion. I don't respect the man who writes such a reply in a post that's supposed to be just a simple "thank you" to our / your vets. It's offensive and off topic.

While I can't speak to your emotional sensibilities, at very least it's not off topic. It's directly bringing into question this automatic giving of thanks and the very meaning of the day itself and its connection to history and human development. It's an attempt to get people to think, rather than just perform the ritual thanks we're scripted to.

In that sense, sure, I'm not saying what I'm expected to say, but it most certainly isn't off topic.

[sentry103]

Well then, I'd suggest you go to a Canadian national cemetary, and thank a dead soldier for lending you his coffin so you can use it as a soapbox.

Edit: BTW as far as my sensabilities are concerned, don't worry your pretty lil head about them. I think i'm tough enough to take it. Like I said at the beginning of my post I'm not a writer. I've forgotten more about bloodshed and "doing the right thing" than you'll ever have the privledge of knowing because you read it in a history book or heard it from some professor whose never been there either. Bless your heart for thinking of my sensabilities though. Your comments are more like a fart from a person who has no social graces. The stench competing with the fine aroma of my snus. Annoying, yes but dismissed just as fast as it came on.

Foreigners don't come to my country and tell me how to pray, burn my books, rape my wife and daughter and educate my children with fascist bull because I stood along with millions of others like me and said, "Come on, you will only die trying" Thats the thanks you should give. Not the politico wind bag response of "oh, war is stupid because of...."

[Zero]

Like I said - the same tired refrain. The only people America ever fought off were the British, and the big-state imperialism that they stood for. That's a war I can support whole heartedly. Other than that, who are these foreigners who have ever tried to invade the US? At last check, I think the only attacks against the US have been Pearl Harbor (and the can of worms that goes with WWII - I'm not going to get into that!) and, I think, the Gulf of Tonkin incident which has been confirmed to be a deliberately manufactured hoax.

We're talking about WWI here, anyway, (Nov11, armistice day... etc) which was primarily a European war. The US didn't even send troops until, I think, the middle of 1917, and the politics of that specific involvement, though less complex than in WWII, are nonetheless too numerous to get into in one post. So this isn't even about America - not directly, although I would draw comparisons to the war in the Middle East, at least in terms of its causes being rooted in militarism and imperialist expansionism.

Not every war is fighting off Hitler, you know. That's sort of a rare case, and you thank people like Prescott Bush and the Union Banking Corporation for feeding Hitler the raw materials he needed to keep his WWII effort going - so let's not get into a silly emotional debate about nebulous "fascists" creeping out between the woodwork to eat your children. Stick to facts and history and you'll find it's a bit more challenging to make an intelligent point.

[sentry103]

Another very nice history book speech Z man. The theocracies / radicals of the middle east attacked the U.S. and SEVERAL other countries in my lifetime. They never conquered because there are soldiers serving something greater than themselves. Middle easern radicals' goals are to wipe the earth of everything their twisted views don't agree with. A spineless people without troops would fall in hours. Their people murdered, enslaved or worse. If you believe otherwise, you are truly living in a different world. It may be that you live a comfortable life in civilized society and cannot believe or simply refuse to believe there are people out there who would rather eat your children than to look at you.

Stick to your history books, keep believing they are always right. They're even entertaining sometimes. I'll be on the ground seeing it in person. Not reading "facts". Living them. All the while cowardly little worms will be blowing hot air of what they think they know because they read the Sunday paper, heard it on the news or read it in a book. They can talk because they know they won't be shot for their views on life. Their troops stand every day defending their right to be a coward.

Side story not really related to this post:

My grandfather was a WWII vet. A PFC in the Army. He was captured during the Battle of the Bulge and put in a stalag. He told the story (to my grandmother who told it to me) of starving and stealing carrots from the Nazi's mules to share with the soldiers he was incarcerated with. He also told of a nice woman who would sneak them bread on occasion. She would throw it over the fence when the guards wern't looking. She was caught in the act one day and the young woman was brought in front of my grandfather and the others. She was then executed in front of them for her compassionate deeds. The guilt he experienced must have been heart wrenching. I can only imagine.

[sentry103]

Oh and Zero, I've pretty much said all I have to say so if you're willing lets agree to disagree and get on with life.

[Zero]

A spineless people without troops would fall in hours.

Who said to be spineless? Who said don't have troops? Maintaining a strong army is important. I think you're not quite sure what you're agreeing to disagree about, but if examining those beliefs is tiresome, then whatever. We leave it.

As for those "crazy theocracies", it sounds like you have a rather distorted impression of the situation. You're not allowed to call them aggressors when you're the one who started it.

[Dead Rabbit]

Totally off topic, but I have this sneaking suspicion Zero would be the worst guy to have your back in a bar fight. I really do picture him to be lord of all things sniveling.

His whole tough guy, “I’m a simple logician devoid of irrational emotion” gig is a sham. Again, it’s easy to go on a message board and brag about how stoic or how lacking one is of empathy. What a courageous member of the intelligentsia he is. Go to a message thread on the “internets” reserved for thanking veterans on Veterans Day and bash those who serve.

The other thing Mr. Smarty pants doesn’t understand is holidays like Veteran’s Day have a purpose that transcends Vets themselves.

Moms, girlfriends, brothers, sons, daughters, wives, no matter their politics, no matter their feelings on the military, make amazing sacrifices every time they see their loved one off on deployment. In many ways, it’s rougher on them then the serviceman himself and I think every Vet who ever served on deployment with a family back home would agree with me. This day is for them too.

I’m sure they are brainless and lacking balls too, according to Zero.

[Zero]

We think in so completely different ways. I don't think I can communicate with you, at least not on the subject of politics.

[Dead Rabbit]

We think in so completely different ways. I don't think I can communicate with you, at least not on the subject of politics.

That may be so. That is becuase I'm not talking politics right now. And it’s not that I don’t understand some of what you’re saying. However, the forum you picked to write a full blown essay attacking servicemen was a thread dedicated to one of two days Americans traditionally reflect on the sacrifices of those in the military. So, by choosing this thread to claim servicemen to be mindless sheep, devoid of fortitude and enslaved by their masters, was affront to my country. A country that has recently buried 4,000 of her sons and daughters since the day 3,000 men, women and children were massacred.

Hell, for what its worth, I believe meditating on the loss of life and the ultimate sacrifice, as we Americans do on Veterans and Memorial Day, probably cause Americans to question war more, not become the nationalistic dumb asses you claim we all are.

I’m guessing you don’t choose a mosque during Ramadan as a forum to discuss your love for Dawkins and Atheism.

Another example: if you one day chose to do something really stupid that leads to your own untimely death, I would never use that day’s anniversary, the day your family grieves for your loss, as a day to remind everyone how stupid you were. No, out of common decency, I would wait for another day to lambaste the stupidity of, say, your hobby of playing “bus frogger” in London while huffing NO2.

But, then again, I know, that you know, you were being an asshole for asshole’s sake. We might be oil and water, but neither of us stupid.


I would go as far as to say you owe the snus.on community an apology. Particularly a moderator, one who, in at least some ways, represents all of us as a sort of diverse community. But I’m guessing hell would freeze over first.


Even if I agreed with you, which I don’t, I still would have a responded the same way.

Don’t tread on the grieving moms, dads and wives of my country.

You’re a smart man. You’re just not an honorable one.