Mars

[sgreger1]

Anyone who conducts his life through blind adherence to any rule book is flawed. His conduct is done out of fear of prosecution, or for some kind of reward. Neither of those has anything to do with what is /right/, and they're no better than a dog who performs tricks for snacks, or to stave off beatings.

Not really. I mean I see your point, but you are putting religion into it's own catagory when it is not. It is a set of rules, with a set of enforcement mechanism, just like anything else.

In religion, you have rules, and if you don't do it by the book god will punish you, so you try to do good and live your life
In ahteism, there is no god so life is only what you make it. There will be no handouts and you have to try to do good and live your life
In reincarnation, you believe that you will live another life, so you have to be good in this life so that you can share the rewards later, so again you do your best and live your life

Or what about a factory workers son, who is taught from birth that he is to work the line, go home, have a wife, have kids, and that that is all there is to life.
Or a woman, who is told that her role is to bare children and maintain the house, because that is just her place



These are all invisible systems of control that MOST people will fall into at some point in their lives. You will run your life based on what you "believe". I BELIEVE there is a God or I BELIEVE there is no GOD etc.

If you adhere to any one set of rules and don't learn to think objectively about things or base your decisions on something other than faith, than yah your a sheep, but man is really little more thana highly evolved sheep to begin with. For MOST of society, it is acceptable to live the life of a farmer and the rules that come with it, or to live the life of a muslim or christian and the rules that come with it. It is an existence which suits them, and forcing them to abandon their "prefered life experience" is not your place.


While you may feel like you are doing the right thing by questioning everything, believing in nothing, or being a skeptic of all you see, likewise some people feel they are living life the "right" way by worshipping jesus and living their life by the good book. From where i'm standing, both of those ways of life end up playing out relatively the same, where really your life is as good as you make it and you get what you give. I think it's unfair to claim that living ones life a certain way is "lesser" than the way you choose to live yours. Who says we are supposed to live in cities and go to college, maybe you'd like to be a desert normad? Maybe you want to pray 5 times a day. Looping back to what Anthony was saying, sometimes there is a net benefit to choosing one set of rules or one paradigm to exist in. It simplifies things and brings people together. Man would not have crawled out from the jungles and built the mayan temples if it werent for their belief in god. Sometimes being able to blame God for this yeas drought or being able to say "he's with god now" when someone dies is just a good (primative, but good) coping mechanism?



If we were all athiests and physicists, do you really believe that the world would be such a better place. Like what Anthony stated, the problems of man are because of the flaws of men, not because of any other 1 thing. As long as there are 10 men in a room, there will be war, greed, power etc. It is not something any social institution can make go away, and it's not something that can be fixed by hitting the delete button on religions.

[justintempler]

I won't embed this video because it full of F-bombs, if you get offended by the F word don't watch it.

FCKH8 (Warning - you will be offended)

[lxskllr]

Not really. I mean I see your point, but you are putting religion into it's own catagory when it is not. It is a set of rules, with a set of enforcement mechanism, just like anything else.

No, religion is a part of that. I include all rule books in that definition. Anyone who blindly follows USA law, or any other law is just as flawed. Religion is a little special in that regard because the penalties, and rewards are just made up, there's no truth to them. At least in America, you won't get imprisoned for not following ridiculous religious rules, unlike the USA laws.

Edit:
What I mean to say, is I'm more forgiving of people not doing the right thing under real threat of government prosecution, rather than the fake threat of supernatural prosecution.

If we were all athiests and physicists, do you really believe that the world would be such a better place. Like what Anthony stated, the problems of man are because of the flaws of men, not because of any other 1 thing. As long as there are 10 men in a room, there will be war, greed, power etc. It is not something any social institution can make go away, and it's not something that can be fixed by hitting the delete button on religions.

Yes, the world would be a better place. People will still be warring over various causes, but scientific endeavor won't be restrained by supernatural fear.

[justintempler]

I don't think all people could handle being atheists, nor do I believe all atheists should be physicists.

I'd rather see someone strung out on Jesus that shooting up heroin. Some people have too much fear to handle facing the real world. They can't handle the fact that they will die someday. Some people need that crutch. Fear is a very strong motivator we see it used in religion and politics all the time. When you overcome your fears you don't need those crutches.

[Ainkor]

Everything is relative to the prevailing belief around you.

To most around Hitler, he was a good person doing good things.

To most around Gengis Khan, he was a good leader and they followed him

Christians believe in Christ, Jews in God, Muslims in Allah.

So be it. What I choose is my personal decisions and it's also my choice to deal with the potential consequences. I don't have the time or inclination to get you to see things my way just as much as I care less about your views.

It can be debated a million+ ways but in reality there does have to be some sort of common ground for a society to function. Like-minded people tend to be more fruitful.

Not sure how this got to this from a mars post :P

[sgreger1]

No, religion is a part of that. I include all rule books in that definition. Anyone who blindly follows USA law, or any other law is just as flawed. Religion is a little special in that regard because the penalties, and rewards are just made up, there's no truth to them. At least in America, you won't get imprisoned for not following ridiculous religious rules, unlike the USA laws.

Edit:
What I mean to say, is I'm more forgiving of people not doing the right thing under real threat of government prosecution, rather than the fake threat of supernatural prosecution.

Yes, the world would be a better place. People will still be warring over various causes, but scientific endeavor won't be restrained by supernatural fear.

Lol, okay I see what you'r saying.


"Yes, the world would be a better place. People will still be warring over various causes, but scientific endeavor won't be restrained by supernatural fear.[/"

But science is not the only piece of the puzzle. I think religion, while causing some problems, is important in that it reinforces things like family etc. not that atheism doesn't, but truly what do you think would happen the 90% of humans that currently believe ina god no longer did? There is a reason they are drawn to it, and it's absence will create a void. This void will lead them to some other method of control, since that is clearly what they are looking for. Who can say how it would really play out.

[sgreger1]

Tom, I just heard the newest conspiracy theory. Fresh off the grill, you heard it here first!






Evil corporations spread the myth that unmarried women exist. This Big Lie motivates men to show up for work each day, allowing Capitalists to get rich on the backs of the working man. Why? Because if they didn't believe this Big Lie they would mostly go live in the woods and have no need to labor, produce or consume.


Government is in on this too. Government has a legitimate Constitutional Duty to maintain civilization. If men realized they didn't need that new car, that big house, that business suit, or to shave, the economy would collapse and civilization would crumble. Plus, when we labor, produce and consume, government taxes each step in the process which allows elected officials to continue getting invited to the 'right' parties and to enjoy the power/sex/money/drugs which is why they went to the trouble of getting elected in the first place.


This evil Fascist Government/Corporatism Complex continues, even to this day, to perpetuate the Big Lie that single women actually exist, which keeps the whole wheel turning.

[sgreger1]

I don't think all people could handle being atheists, nor do I believe all atheists should be physicists.

I'd rather see someone strung out on Jesus that shooting up heroin. Some people have too much fear to handle facing the real world. They can't handle the fact that they will die someday. Some people need that crutch. Fear is a very strong motivator we see it used in religion and politics all the time. When you overcome your fears you don't need those crutches.

But that's my point to Lx, is that religion clearly serves some purpose, fills some void, because otherwise it wouldn't be so widespread. Same can be said about drugs.

Think of the alcoholic who couldn't kick the habit untill he was "born again". Really, if it works, is it not doing some good to society? Religion also makes people donate lots of money to charitable causes, 10% by mandate in some religions. I think it's too easy to say religion should just go away, it clearly serves some purpose in society.


Also, FACT: All athiests are phsyicists, I know this because of my bachelors degree in google.

[lxskllr]

But science is not the only piece of the puzzle. I think religion, while causing some problems, is important in that it reinforces things like family etc. not that atheism doesn't, but truly what do you think would happen the 90% of humans that currently believe ina god no longer did? There is a reason they are drawn to it, and it's absence will create a void. This void will lead them to some other method of control, since that is clearly what they are looking for. Who can say how it would really play out.

That's philosophy, and doesn't require religion. Are you saying that you'd be a complete dickhead if you weren't exposed at all to religion growing up? I find that hard to believe. Just as I know many piece of shit Christians, I know many non religious that are fine people, and of course the obverse. If people would concentrate on the real, and not the imagined they could better themselves much quicker, and not get tied up by superfluous rules.

[sgreger1]

Everything is relative to the prevailing belief around you.

To most around Hitler, he was a good person doing good things.

To most around Gengis Khan, he was a good leader and they followed him

Christians believe in Christ, Jews in God, Muslims in Allah.

So be it. What I choose is my personal decisions and it's also my choice to deal with the potential consequences. I don't have the time or inclination to get you to see things my way just as much as I care less about your views.

It can be debated a million+ ways but in reality there does have to be some sort of common ground for a society to function. Like-minded people tend to be more fruitful.

Not sure how this got to this from a mars post :P

It's snuson baby, we have a mandate here to derail any and all threads from their original topic.

[sgreger1]

That's philosophy, and doesn't require religion. Are you saying that you'd be a complete dickhead if you weren't exposed at all to religion growing up? I find that hard to believe. Just as I know many piece of shit Christians, I know many non religious that are fine people, and of course the obverse. If people would concentrate on the real, and not the imagined they could better themselves much quicker, and not get tied up by superfluous rules.

But sometimes those rules are good for a certain set of people. Like my example above about the alcoholic who finds god and sobers up. The regular rules of society didn't work, but because of religion, he has changed his life around. Sure it was all in his head to begin with, but it worked and therefore had a net benefit to society. What about starving kids in africa or your local foodbank, the normal concrete rules didn't fix their situation and allow them to eat, but the local church donated to the effort, therefore those imaginary rules served some good.

[lxskllr]

But sometimes those rules are good for a certain set of people. Like my example above about the alcoholic who finds god and sobers up. The regular rules of society didn't work, but because of religion, he has changed his life around. Sure it was all in his head to begin with, but it worked and therefore had a net benefit to society. What about starving kids in africa or your local foodbank, the normal concrete rules didn't fix their situation and allow them to eat, but the local church donated to the effort, therefore those imaginary rules served some good.

Hmm... I dunno. The donation part is easy. Civic organizations can take that up, and I think it would be just as successful, and not include the religious baggage that accompanies many "donations". As far as the alcoholic goes... I assume you're talking about AA, and other similar organizations. I don't see why self reflection couldn't work just as well. In the end, it's just pointing people to right path. It's still up to them whether they'll take it or not.

[justintempler]

I think religion, while causing some problems, is important in that it reinforces things like family etc. not that atheism doesn't, but truly what do you think would happen the 90% of humans that currently believe ina god no longer did? There is a reason they are drawn to it, and it's absence will create a void. This void will lead them to some other method of control, since that is clearly what they are looking for. Who can say how it would really play out.

But atheism does not reinforce families, it's not supposed to. Atheism only concerns itself with belief in god/nothing more.

We get our morals from the society we live in, man is a social creature, man gains more by cooperating with the people around him, it's mutually beneficial. If you had to grow your own food, raise the animals to make your own clothes, build your own shelter you wouldn't survive very long. If you want to survive you need to codify a code of conduct that gets you what you want.

Do you really think the Hebrews had to be told it was wrong to kill before the 10 commandments were "handed" down? Do you think everybody thought it was OK to steal each others wives before they were told it was wrong? And if the only reason you "behave" yourself is because you are afraid of being punished, what happens when the threat of punishment is removed? Will you still "behave" yourself? That's the test of true morality.

I didn't get a prepackaged philosophy, I had to find my own. I'm a Libertarian, an Objectivist, and a Materialist.

[sgreger1]

But atheism does not reinforce families, it's not supposed to. Atheism only concerns itself with belief in god/nothing more.

We get our morals from the society we live in, man is a social creature, man gains more by cooperating with the people around him, it's mutually beneficial. If you had to grow your own food, raise the animals to make your own clothes, build your own shelter you wouldn't survive very long. If you want to survive you need to codify a code of conduct that gets you what you want.

Do you really think the Hebrews had to be told it was wrong to kill before the 10 commandments were "handed" down? Do you think everybody thought it was OK to steal each others wives before they were told it was wrong? And if the only reason you "behave" yourself is because you are afraid of being punished, what happens when the threat of punishment is removed? Will you still "behave" yourself? That's the test of true morality.

I didn't get a prepackaged philosophy, I had to find my own. I'm a Libertarian, an Objectivist, and a Materialist.

I am not saying that there would be no morals or family without religion, you are misunderstanding my argument. I am saying that it is both illogical and vlind to not acknowledge that religion exists because clearly there is a place in society for it. It must serve some purpose because it is one of the only common things that 99% of humans that ever existed share. To say it just appeared for no reason and serves no purpose is silly.

Athiesm and other things in the world serve their own function as well, but really guys, you are trying to say that it would be easy, no, BETTER if we took away the one thing that nearly all humans have always had faith in. Religion is the driving force behind most things for most of human history.


I mean the world would be better without emotion right? Without ego? Lets erase that, the world will be a better place! Its just not that easy, nor would the outcome necessarily play out in the manner which you assume it will.


I am not religious and i dont really understand the concept of why religion is so prevalent, but it is. Citing only the bad parts is to ignore the larger animal, which is of course all the good parts. Can humans ever go without a religion or something to believe in to get them through those tough times? I think some people need it, and they are free to "find" it as long as it doesnt bother me or only if it makes for hilarious snuson threads.



Edit: and no justin, i think if society, religion, laws etc didnt tell us it was wrong, man would behave largely like an animal. Like who the **** came up with the concept of monogomous relationships. For most of mankind, man and woman would only have 1 sexual partner their entire lives. Yet in my observations it seems that that institution goes against what man would actually like to do if he were allowed to do it. Yet having the family unit has clearly been of benefit to manking, particularly early mankind.


We were animals for a hundred thousand years. Then suddenly religion came along and we start developing language, agriculture, art etc. Look at the fossil record, some of the earliest remains show burial rituals , and at the time writing was invented, religion was already fully formed all over the world. Coincidence? I think it played a part in our evolution, and like the apendix it will someday be unnecessary. Untill that day, its here to stay.

[Bigblue1]

I BELIEVE there is a God or I BELIEVE Hitler mated with Aliens.

Fixed it