Northerner.com will sell in USA but will follow the Pact Act

[justintempler]

JT,

Absolutely!!

My point is that PACT adds no further regulations to the already existing requirements for international sales. The new regulations are interstate only.

Thus, if your international shipment was legal last month then it will be legal in 90 days.

You are missing the intent of the law...

They are tightening up the definitions of what is legal and what is contraband. That's why Northerner is having to jump through hoops to make sure all it's products are labeled and why the manufacturers are having to submit their ingredient lists to the FDA.

[Snusdog]

JT,

Absolutely!!

My point is that PACT adds no further regulations to the already existing requirements for international sales. The new regulations are interstate only.

Thus, if your international shipment was legal last month then it will be legal in 90 days.

You are missing the intent of the law...

They are tightening up the definitions of what is legal and what is contraband. That's why Northerner is having to jump through hoops to make sure all it's products are labeled and why the manufacturers are having to submit their ingredient lists to the FDA.

NO they are not redefining what is legal or contraband. Rather they are redefining the taxes on that which is and has always been legal. The only remote restriction on contraband made by the law is no more interstate shipping of tobacco- BUT SHIPPING CONTRABAND TOBACCO between states HAS ALWAYS BEEN ILLEGAl. The law is a sham.

And notice, Northerner is only having to comply with the new FDA and PACT regulations for things sold from their USA warehouse (which falls under interstate commerce and thus is regulated by PACT/FDA)

You have got to read past the introduction to the bill (which is fluff and states why they think the bill is necessary). You have to go to the legislation of the bill (read the definition sections carefully) to see what they are actually doing about the situation sited in the intro. The answer is NOTHING. They are simply taxing interstate sales.

Again,
-point to one mention in the legislative section of the law regarding legal international sales. Not there

-point to one amendment or reconciliation with existing international trade laws (this would have to be there if those laws were altered in any way by this law). Not there

-point to one budgetary mention of international commerce

Its just not there.

The law is very specific in what it is regulating. Its language and definitions are specific. We cannot assume that "sales into a state" include shipments from Sweden when the law has specifically defined "sales into a state" as interstate or tribal.

You sell tobacco within the USA- you have to comply with PACT/FDA or you will be in violation of the law and subject to its penalty section.

International sales must comply with international laws or they will be in violation of said laws and subject to the penalties laid out by those laws.

The PACT/FDA simply does not address legal international sales- no where not once. Show me. Point it out to me. I'm still in stunned disbelief.


dog :shock:

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[LaZeR]

...snip image to save bandwidth.


:wink:

.

My below comment could be deemed NSFW... WARNING....

/oh and way offtopic


I accomplished laying on my back in bed so no shower involved. Damn near shot myself in the eye, it's been so damn long. ops: Feeling a little less tension today now. Many thanks to giving me some good news and allowing me to finally release some pent up tension. :wink:

[Snusdog]

OK while JT and I are solving the worlds problems I went ahead and wrote the Postmaster General the following email

pmgceo@usps.gov

Dear Postmaster General

My name is

I am hoping that you can clarify a point for me concerning the PACT ACT.

Will the PACT ACT alter existing international laws and trade agreements that currently allow legal international sales of snuff and snus to be shipped from overseas merchants to private consumers like me by way of the USPS?

In other words, will it still be legal for these merchants to ship their goods from overseas using the USPS?


Thank you for your help in this matter.

Yours truly,

If I hear anything back, I will let you know


.........and Laz............. I would say that I am glad to be of help..........but then I would have to jump off a bridge.

dog 8)

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[justintempler]

The PACT/FDA simply does not address legal international sales- no where not once. Show me. Point it out to me. I'm still in stunned disbelief.


dog :shock:

.

You don't understand, they are already considered illegal, it's just been a low priority, and it's hard to enforce internationally when you aren't enforcing it within your own states on the homefront.


Read this:

U.S. Department of Justice Office of the Inspector General Evaluation and Inspections Division - The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives’ Efforts to Prevent the Diversion of Tobacco
September 2009

http://www.justice.gov/oig/reports/ATF/e0905.pdf

[Snusdog]

Damn it JT

thats 57 pages :shock:


see ya in a bit :evil:


dog 8)


.

[LHB]

Damn it JT

thats 57 pages :shock:


see ya in a bit :evil:


dog 8)


.

I can appreciate everyone who wants definitive reassurance, but you're not going to get it, ever. There is a lot to be said for being quiet, discreet and inconspicuous when you're dealing in grey market transactions.

[Snusdog]

DAMN IT JT

You made me read that whole damn Article and it don’t have JACK SHIT to do with our discussion

It is all about bootlegging tobacco (i.e. tobacco diversion) and tax evasion

Here are the money quotes

The U.S. Department of Justice’s (Department) Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) is charged with investigating the diversion of alcohol and tobacco products from the legal distribution system to evade payment of federal and state excise taxes.

And

Tobacco products are diverted from the legal distribution system in a variety of ways to evade payment of federal and state excise taxes. This diversion can include several different types of criminal behavior, as outlined below.

• Smuggling from a low tax state to a high tax state – Individuals and organized crime groups purchase or obtain, either through legal or illegal means, quantities of tobacco in a state or jurisdiction where the state excise tax is low. The contraband product is then transported across state lines with the intent of selling it in a higher tax state for the same price as legal products, thus generating a larger profit than could be earned through legal trade.

• Faking export of tobacco products – Federal and state excise taxes are not imposed on tobacco products manufactured in the United States for export. Criminals will avoid excise taxes by fabricating paperwork to indicate that a product is intended for export and then illegally sell the product in the United States.

• Counterfeit products – Counterfeit tobacco products sold in the United States are primarily manufactured in China and Eastern Europe, smuggled into the United States, and then sold through both illegal and legitimate retail outlets. The counterfeit products use the trade names and packaging similar to the legally manufactured products, and the legitimate outlets may not realize the products they are selling are counterfeit.

• Smuggling across international borders – Individuals or organized crime groups illegally move contraband and counterfeit tobacco products across international boundaries through established smuggling methods and routes. Criminals profit by selling the counterfeit or authentic products without paying the taxes.

• Selling products without tax stamps or with counterfeit tax stamps – All states except three require tobacco products to have tax stamps or markings before they can be sold at the retail level.25 In states that require tax stamps, criminals may sell products without the tax stamp or affix a counterfeit tax stamp, thereby avoiding the payment of the excise tax.

*Internet sales – Criminal groups have used the Internet to sell tobacco to customers in the United States without adhering to the tobacco tax and trade laws. ATF officials also told us that some Native American tribes and reservations are using the Internet to sell cigarettes without paying the requisite federal and state excise taxes.These Native American websites advertise that consumers do not have to pay the excise tax, which is not legal for non-Native American consumers, and use checks or cash transfers to process the orders.

So… which of these are you accusing FRANK of doing.

Frank may have a shitty bonus point system (and turning it into a club doesn’t help Frank…I love ya…….but it’s still shitty) but Frank is no snus pirate.

And if your answer is none of the above…… then what the hell was the point of reading that whole damn article. As long as imported tobacco has the required US Customs declaration on it, it is NOT CONTRABAND.

The UPC (Universal Postal Council--- of which the USA is a part) has declared tobacco legal for import and legal for postal conveyance.

However all was not lost.

I did gleam this little gem……………..check it out…….it’s utter bullshit and coercion

Cigarette manufacturers also add a fee to cigarettes to cover the cost of a civil court agreement. In 1998, after a number of states initiated lawsuits against the tobacco companies seeking to recover the cost of medical expenses for people with smoking-related illnesses, the Attorneys General of 46 states, Washington, D.C., 5 U.S. territories, and the 4 largest tobacco manufacturers negotiated the Master Settlement Agreement. The agreement required the manufacturers to make payments to the states and imposed restrictions on the manufacturers’ advertising and lobbying as well as on youth access to tobacco.31 ATF estimates that the cigarette manufacturers add approximately $5 to a carton of cigarettes to recoup the payments associated with the Master Settlement Agreement

In all seriousness

JT is one of the smartest people on the forum and one of the most well informed. Right now he and I are talking past one another. He sees something that I am missing. That makes me nervous.

So JT………nothing but the utmost respect...….nonetheless………..the ball’s in your court…..…it’s 30 feet……..from the arch…………….nothing but net………for H..O..R..S

dog 8)

and I ain't reading no more crap tonight :wink:


.

[justintempler]

Snusdog I respect you and I'm not going to twist your arm to see what I see.

It comes down to legal definitions the way a judge would interpret them and if we don't interpret them the way they do then we'll never see it coming. It's about tax revenue and anyone who tries to sell a product into the USA will have to play by the FDA, ICE, USPS, & ATF rules and if they don't their products will be labeled as contraband.

The writing is on the wall.
I'm going to borrow these definitions from a Canadian document:
PDF - Contraband Cigarettes in Ontario

Glossary

Tobacco Smuggling
Illegal import or export of tobacco products across borders (international border, interstate or interprovincial
borders)

Tobacco Contraband
Sale of tobacco products without all applicable taxes

Casual Cigarette Smuggling
Illegal transport of tobacco product across borders for personal use

Organized Cigarette Smuggling
Illegal transport of tobacco products across borders for profit

Wholesale Cigarette Smuggling
Procurement of tobacco products in one jurisdiction without paying taxes, then smuggling into another jurisdiction for profit--Large-scale operation

Cigarette Bootlegging
Procurement of tobacco products in one lower tax jurisdiction paying applicable taxes, then smuggling them into another higher tax jurisdiction for profit

When we place an order over the internet from a company overseas there is no mechanism for us to pay the appropriate excise taxes, when we fail to pay the required excise taxes, in the eyes of the law, we get labeled as smugglers and our product gets labeled as contraband.

[Snusdog]

Ahhh…....its clear now…...I see.

I agree with every thing you said but one point

there is no mechanism for us to pay the appropriate excise taxes...................we get labeled as smugglers

There is where I think we were crossing paths

The resolve seems to rest between the legal requirements, the implementation of those requirements and how the disparity between the two will be reconciled (if at all).

However, such is way beyond my knowledge to speak

And from my reading, it is beyond the language of the PACT.

But as you have so aptly pointed out, language and inference are two different things when it comes to law.

I think we may have to wait for a definitive answer.

Anyway, thank you for your patience in this

As always it has been most helpful


dog 8)

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[GoVegan]

Interesting conversation but unfortunately I do think JT has it right. Just look at how the government screwed the online gaming industry which was at one time, a legal industry. The began to arrest anyone remotely connected with the online gaming industry, shut off bank transactions and basically told the WTO that they don't give a crap about trade agreements. They are after tobacco and will configure the law to whatever they need.

[Snusdog]

Interesting conversation but unfortunately I do think JT has it right. Just look at how the government screwed the online gaming industry which was at one time, a legal industry. The began to arrest anyone remotely connected with the online gaming industry, shut off bank transactions and basically told the WTO that they don't give a crap about trade agreements. They are after tobacco and will configure the law to whatever they need.

Vegan,

There is a lot of truth in that

I’m not quite ready to concede but I do see where you and JT are coming from now

A law can be ambiguous because it is poorly written

or because it intentionally means to provide room to “write it as you go”

My concern is not that international trade is the target at the moment; but that this is simply step one.

I can see big tobacco clearing out its domestic competitors first (PACT will clearly do that)

Step two is then pointing to the increase in smuggling and tax diversion that has resulted due to PACT (a theme that the Justice Department paper that JT had me read kept going back to…...increase taxes and bootlegging will increase)

Step three is that Big tobacco will then move to cut off all but domestic suppliers (this time they will have statistical grounds for altering existing trade agreements).

This might also explain why SM has moved to begin a production facility in the USA (and not just a warehouse).

The door gets slammed and they are the only snus producers that slipped in.

But then again what do I know……….last week I thought Frank was trying to take over the world. ops:


dog 8)


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[GoVegan]

Snus is probably not much of a threat for now. The big tobacco companies rely on cigarettes and they have already shut the door to overseas cigarette purchases. I am sure that they will target snus as it becomes popular. I also think that they are planning to use the FDA to make sure that the government and big tobacco have their way. They will just come up with something like adding salt to snus is flavoring the tobacco in a way to attract kids.

[sgreger1]

In an unfortunate turn of evens I must agree with JT here. What you think the law means is not relevant, what the court will interpret the law to mean really is what counts. And frankly, we are a bunch of smugglers to them. We get something at a low cost, from the manufacturer, and often times without paying taxes. That is the devil as far as the united states is concerned.


PACT is a weird thing in that it has the typical problems, being as such:

1) The law was written to accomplish x,y, and z.
2) But, for nefarious purposes, they may use the law to really broaden the field of who they can call a smuggler.

Really we just have to wait and see, but in the long run, the message should be clear: cigs are the form of tobacco that have a voice and anything else must be blasphemous. I still heavily maintain that it's in snuses best interest to stay underground. Really. Once gov sees you as a player, it's goodnight for your operation.

[LaZeR]

All this uncertainty in my life, I just can't take it anymore.