Beware of muslims!

[tom502]

What's a "muslim nation" that has and embraces total religious freedom, by allowing other faiths without harrasment, and also welcome freedom of religious choice amongst the Muslims, should they choose to leave Islam, and be something else, or nothing? Remember the outrage when, what was it, Swizerland wanted to limit Islamic Minarets? Just imagine a Buddhist group opening a Temple in Saudi, or Afganistan and wanting to erect tall pagodas. And the law in many Muslim nations that forbid women from not covering their head, yet non-Muslim women there are still forced to abide by their instituted religious laws, even the Quran has no law that tells women to cover their heads.

[sgreger1]

God, who gives a shit what religion the immigrants are. I sure don't. Just as long as I don't have to be part of any stupid religion I don't give a crap what God you belive in.

I agree, the only problem is that Muslims tend to want to impose themselves on you by force:

Yeah the exremists. No muslim I ever met have ever tried to impose him/herself on me. AND that's been the case with every other religion trough times. So I call bullshit on that.

I just posted an incident of a place where they were friendly to Muslim immegrants and after there were enough of them, they demanded sharia law and that national landmarks be turned into Mosques. You are right, it is the extremists. The problem is that the extrimists are starting to match the number of moderates around the world, and the religion as a whole has been perverted in a way that it allows soldiers to shoot up army bases, and civilians be killed as they are seen as collateral damage in the holy war against the west.

Meanwhile most of the moderates stay quiet. In America they are silent, in Afghanistan they help harbor the terrorists. Only small (very small) groups have spoken out against the jihad being carried out against the west and the innocent civilians across the world who have lost their lives in the hundreds of thousands at the hand of this religion.

[Andy#1]

Well whatever. I just want to point out that most of Europe think that North America are Christian Fundamentalists.

[sgreger1]

Well whatever. I just want to point out that most of Europe think that North America are Christian Fundamentalists.

Let em think what they want. As long as the damn christians aren't rioting and killing people every time someone makes a cartoon about jesus i'll be cool. And as long as they aren't openly calling for us to make laws based on outdated bible passages they pose no threat to me.



85% of Americans self-identify as Christians. (2002)
7% of US adults classify as evangelicals (2004) (see Evangelical category for more information)
38% of US adults classify as born again, but not evangelical. (2004)
37% are self-described Christians but are neither evangelical nor born again
Atheists and agnostics comprise 12% of adults nationwide. (2004)
11% of the US population identify with a faith other than Christianity (2004)

[Andy#1]

Let em think what they want. As long as the damn christians aren't rioting and killing people every time someone makes a cartoon about jesus i'll be cool.

Now that WAS stupid, agreed. I just don't think that many muslims was upset by it as we were led to belive. And Christians get upset by all kinds of Crazy shit too.
Anyways, I don't think we'll get much further with this debate or whatever so I'll leave it at that.

[Roo]

sgreger1, here are some good quotes and links, including some insightful quotes straight from the Quran Some of the groups or individuals ain't so "small". Don't be afraid of all the scary-sounding Arabic names...

http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

To say the minority of extremists is catching up with the moderate majority is ridiculous. Why would average, everyday moderation in Islam make the news? Tolerance and good relations are expected of people. Nobody is reporting on your good Christian neighbors lol.

[sgreger1]

Let em think what they want. As long as the damn christians aren't rioting and killing people every time someone makes a cartoon about jesus i'll be cool.

Now that WAS stupid, agreed. I just don't think that many muslims was upset by it as we were led to belive. And Christians get upset by all kinds of Crazy shit too.
Anyways, I don't think we'll get much further with this debate or whatever so I'll leave it at that.

Lol, yah I agree. It only takes a small group doing something stupid to put a bad name on the larger group of people. Like when 1 guy bombs an abortion clinic, all of a sudden all christians are terrorists. It's just part of the neverending age-old flamewar going on between christians and Muslims.


Ironically, though I was brought up in a christian style environment, I find that the (non radical) aspects of Islam actually fit my taste better. Mainly because they throw out the idea that god had a son born into the physical realm by impregnating a virgin who he sent down to earth to save everyone, but was instead brutally murdered by the very humans he created, and the concept that somehow Jesus getting killed was actually a good thing for humanity and necessary to make man less sinfull and evil. I mean it's logic ties knots in my brain trying to follow it.

[sgreger1]

sgreger1, here are some good quotes and links, including some insightful quotes straight from the Quran Some of the groups or individuals ain't so "small". Don't be afraid of all the scary-sounding Arabic names...

http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

To say the minority of extremists is catching up with the moderate majority is ridiculous. Why would average, everyday moderation in Islam make the news? Tolerance and good relations are expected of people. Nobody is reporting on your good Christian neighbors lol.

You don't have to sell me on it. I am sure I come off as a hate teh muzliiiims paranoid kind of guy but that couldn't be further from the truth. The core beliefs behind Islam make more sense to me than the Christians version. I believe in 1 god who is supreme and perhaps over the years he has had prophets he spoke to, but he never had some son get sent down here to be murdered by his other children in order to save those children from hell, which he created in the first place.


But to deny the fact that the radical sect of islam is not growing exponentially is an outrageous bit of misinformation. While I admit the US's involvement fuels a lot of this, the amount of radical jihadists has increased tenfold in the last 50 years. Mainly due to our funding them when they were fighting the russians.

[tom502]

Granted in all of Muslimdom, the radicals might be the minority, but look at the laws and such in Islamic Nations. And look at all the Jihadis and suicide bombers, happens everyday and everywhere. The number of them, and their silent, and vocal supporters isn't that small. We don't see this type of behaviour amoung other religions, that can match the enormity of this. It's not accurate to compare them with others, or just think it's a small impoverished group of maybe 20 people. It's big time, with big backers, and big supporters.

[sgreger1]

Roo: From the Quaran



"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)

"Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons...he shall incur the wrath of God and Hell shall be his home..." (Surah 8:12-)

"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

No doubt I heard Allah's messenger saying, “During the last days there will appear some young foolish people, who will say the best words, but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will leave the faith) and will go out from their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.” (Bukhari volume 9, no.64)

Sura 9:29-33 “Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in God, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth, until they pay tribute out of hand, and they be humbled.”

“. . . kill the pagans wherever you may find them . . .”

[Roo]

the amount of radical jihadists has increased tenfold in the last 50 years. Mainly due to our funding them when they were fighting the russians.

Gotta disagree... mainly due to the internet and our wars and continued presence over there. America needs to do itself a big favor and stop being so frightened of Islam, or communism for that matter (boo!), and work to understand these things on much deeper levels. You are unusual in your pursuit of knowledge, regardless of what conclusions you reach, when compared to the rest of the world. For that you have my respect.

[sgreger1]

the amount of radical jihadists has increased tenfold in the last 50 years. Mainly due to our funding them when they were fighting the russians.

Gotta disagree... mainly due to the internet and our wars and continued presence over there. America needs to do itself a big favor and stop being so frightened of Islam, or communism for that matter (boo!), and work to understand these things on much deeper levels. You are unusual in your pursuit of knowledge, regardless of what conclusions you reach, when compared to the rest of the world. For that you have my respect.

We should not be frightened, as they pose little to no threat to our land. America was made to be a house on a hill, isolationist. Just doing our own thing, and only calling to arms if OUR land was attacked. We need to learn from history and just stop doing shit in the middle east, it only breeds problems. 9-11 likely wouldn't have happened if we had not been stirring up the place for the 20 years prior.
The muslims have no decent standing army, they have nothing that we cannot destroy, but when we go into their land looking for a fight, we are met with guerilla warfare much like the redcoats upon their arriving on the American shores.
We will lose, and even if we win, the hatred towards the west will remain for centuries to come. Just like the crusades cast a terrible light on the christians even a thousand years after it's end, so shall this endeavor cast a bad light on the developed world should we continue to aggitate the midle eastern peoples for the foreseable future.


When the US friendly government in Nicaragua was overthrown, the CIA brought cheap street drugs (crack) to our streets to finance an insurgency to prop up the pro-US leaders. When we percieved Russia as the enemy, we trained and armed Al Quaida. When we saw Iraq as an ally we gave WMD's and other support to Sadam Hussein.

The biggest error of the America's is that we do not learn from our mistakes, and repeat them ad infinitum into oblivion, making our situation worse with each decision we make.


EDIT: Communism, on the other hand, has already claimed the lifes of millions and is the greatest enemy to freedom ever concieved. One thing I agree with JudgeFaust on is that America ever so slowly creeps an inch closer to Fascism with each decision it makes. This too is evil and must be stopped before more innocent lives are destroyed as a result of it.

[justintempler]

Well whatever. I just want to point out that most of Europe think that North America are Christian Fundamentalists.

With politicians like George Bush and Sarah Palin, with the fights about gay marriage, abortion, stem cell research, and the creation/evolution controversy it's easy to see why. :cry:

I'm an atheist that spends part of his time debating the fundies on YouTube. I do think that there are a lot of people that label themselves as Christians who are really closet atheists that afraid to let their true feelings be known.

[sgreger1]

Well whatever. I just want to point out that most of Europe think that North America are Christian Fundamentalists.

With politicians like George Bush and Sarah Palin, with the fights about gay marriage, abortion, stem cell research, and the creation/evolution controversy it's easy to see why. :cry:

I'm an atheist that spends part of his time debating the fundies on YouTube. I do think that there are a lot of people that label themselves as Christians who are really closet atheists that afraid to let their true feelings be known.

Surely you ommited Obama who himself is a Christian on accident. Right?

The issue of abortion is an issue of whether it is okay to kill a child or what the definition of a child is. It is seperate from religion.

The issue of stem cell research goes back to whether it is okay to kill a fetus and use it for a purpose other than creating a baby. Frankly I couldn't disagree more with the right on this issue, but again, not religious in nature.

The issue of gay marriage is of course religious because marriage is a religious institution, created and administrated by religion. The government just accepts the bonding of two adults by a preacher as a union and then issues a license based on that. The religious people are upset that the gay community is hijacking their word and their institution and then using it for a purpose other than what it was meant for.

As for creation/evolution, anyone who believes the earth is 6,000 years old can quickly debunk that idea by looking at the sky, and realizing that for them to be seeing the light from the stars the universe must at a minimum be several billion years old in order for the light to have reached their eyes. However, there is no way to disprove that god created the big bang or whatever the creation event was.

[justintempler]

Surely you ommited Obama who himself is a Christian on accident. Right?

There's a difference between being a Christian and a fundamentalist Christian...

Taken from Barack Obama's June 28, 2006, CALL TO RENEWAL KEYNOTE SPEECH

"We're No Longer Just a Christian Nation."

Moreover, given the increasing diversity of America's population, the dangers of sectarianism have never been greater. Whatever we once were, we are no longer just a Christian nation; we are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers.

And even if we did have only Christians in our midst, if we expelled every non-Christian from the United States of America, whose Christianity would we teach in the schools? Would we go with James Dobson's, or Al Sharpton's? Which passages of Scripture should guide our public policy? Should we go with Leviticus, which suggests slavery is ok and that eating shellfish is abomination? How about Deuteronomy, which suggests stoning your child if he strays from the faith?

Or should we just stick to the Sermon on the Mount - a passage that is so radical that it's doubtful that our own Defense Department would survive its application? So before we get carried away, let's read our bibles. Folks haven't been reading their bibles.

This brings me to my second point. Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. It requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason.

I may be opposed to abortion for religious reasons, but if I seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or evoke God's will. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all.

RELIGION IN A DEMOCRACY

Now this is going to be difficult for some who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, as many evangelicals do. But in a pluralistic democracy, we have no choice.

Politics depends on our ability to persuade each other of common aims based on a common reality. It involves the compromise, the art of what's possible. At some fundamental level, religion does not allow for compromise. It's the art of the impossible. If God has spoken, then followers are expected to live up to God's edicts, regardless of the consequences.

To base one's life on such uncompromising commitments may be sublime, but to base our policy making on such commitments would be a dangerous thing. And if you doubt that, let me give you an example.

We all know the story of Abraham and Isaac. Abraham is ordered by God to offer up his only son, and without argument, he takes Isaac to the mountaintop, binds him to an altar, and raises his knife, prepared to act as God has commanded.

Of course, in the end God sends down an angel to intercede at the very last minute, and Abraham passes God's test of devotion.

But it's fair to say that if any of us leaving this church saw Abraham on a roof of a building raising his knife, we would, at the very least, call the police and expect the Department of Children and Family Services to take Isaac away from Abraham. We would do so because we do not hear what Abraham hears, do not see what Abraham sees, true as those experiences may be. So the best we can do is act in accordance with those things that we all see, and that we all hear, be it common laws or basic reason.

I have no problem with a politician being religious as long as he can provide a compelling secular argument to pass laws that happen to coincide with his beliefs.