Police openly steeling money at random to fund their department

[AtreyuKun]

It's a big world, and for every link you post of a criminal cop I can post a link showing a cop doing something heroic, saving someone's life.

Then by all means, please do so. If there are good cop out there, we need to see a little evidence of it.

[TheJanitor]

Let me google it for you: http://www.google.com/m/search?oe=UT...q&ved=0CA8QpwU

See, on the internet if you go in searching for something bad, you will find it. Same goes for something good. I prefer to live my life under the assumption that most people are genuinely good. Naive? Maybe, but what's the alternative? Paranoia? Which sounds better to you?

[AtreyuKun]

Hell I don't know. You're the one who said you could post them. I don't really care either way.

[truthwolf1]

Shakedowns are pretty common in eastern europe.
The fines are too expensive for the salaries people make so a small shake-down and warning is very common.
Tickets are creeping up higher and higher here in the USA so it seems to be starting a similar trend.

[sgreger1]

Just to butt in with another perspective again... As far as police brutality and not being able to approach a parked squad vehicle without finding your dick in the dirt and a gun pointed at you. Every year the criminal element in our society becomes increasingly violent and brazzen. As officers we all have family and friends that we deserve to go home to, and we train in a manner that will allow us to do so at the end of our shift. For example in 1975 not even the nastiest criminal would walk into a starbucks pull out a glock and execute three officers. In 2010 thats a whole different story.

Tripplethreat,

Thank you for your detailed response. I am completely aware of all of this which is why I have always given police the benefit of the doubt and why I am always kind and courteous to every officer I come into contact with (1. because I respect the good ones, and 2. because compliance usually leads to less hassle).

I spent most of my years in places where the people are generally criminals and do not respect cops, where every cop needs to look over his shoulder because guys might walk into a Wendy's and smoke 2 cops eating lunch and walk out like it was nothing. Areas controlled by gangs to the point where it seemed like the police were afraid to even go there, and when they did they took down the easy targets like my dad exercising his right to defend himself agains ta criminal with a firearm. I understand that when you deal with the worst people, you start taking a jaded attitude and seeing everyone as potentially the guy who's going to stop you from seing your kids tonight. I understand this so intimately, again I have family in law enforcement and even my father was an LEO back in Vegas at one time. I get it.


I also understand the, "I'm not taking no ****ing chances because I plan on going home when this is all over" mindset, I spent a full year on almost nothing but clearing houses and learning when to/when not to pull the trigger, and I am sure police have ever stricter rules since they are operating domestically and not in an active theatre of war. So I get all of what you are saying completely and I know how hard it is to go through the escalation of force steps all in that split second, and sometimes you tend to favor your safety over anything else frankly which is a HUMAN reaction that cannot really be unlearned.



But where I severely, absolutely incredibly disagree with you is in regards to the "we're liable if we mess up". Because it has been proven time and time again that there is no accountability for police officers. Cops shoot innocent people here ALL THE ****ING TIME and NEVER get in any real trouble. The headlines ALWAYS say the same thing, they are suspended with pay, they are being "forced to resign" etc. Never do I hear of a cop getting the death penalty or getting life behind bars for crimes that regular people would get the book thrown at them for.

The point is that the police are not held accountable, and because of that they are not afraid to treat citizens the way they do. T

Nay, in fact here in the golden state cops and their families have special privaledges, like they don't have to pay parking tickets or speeding tickets thanks to our GOLD STAR desk set up by the gracious governor where they can get any citations immediately removed. In the state where Rodney king happened and they walked out of the court room not guilty, leading to my entire city getting burned down by rioters. Where they shoot unarmed kids on the train because "he had something flashy in his pocket" etc. And they all get the absolute minimum (if any) sentence, or house arrest maybe, or perhaps reduced pay.


I don't like being a second class citizen. If a cop is accused of manslaughter, he should get what I would get for a similar charge. If he murders someone, he should be charged the same as a regular citizen. But there is no accountability.





Anyways, I completely see your side of the story, I have lived it, I have heard it from family members, and I know what it's like to have to rush into that room and make a split decision on whether or not to pull the trigger, or whether or not the thing someone is holding in their hands is a gun or some other object that may be used as a weapon of force against you. I understand where your side is coming from 100%, but it does not excuse the fact that when dirty cops are dirty they should be punished, and right now they are not being properly dealt with. Surely, as a good cop, you can see how it would be a problem if we don't hold these officers accountable , because then all the new officers that come on board see the vets being crooked and think "well this is just how it works", so they get in on it too, and pretty soon it's like new york all over again and the whole damn police force ends up working as the second branch of the mob.

[sgreger1]

It's a big world, and for every link you post of a criminal cop I can post a link showing a cop doing something heroic, saving someone's life.

Just like with terrorism, even if 10% are radical that is WAY TOO MANY. It must be dealt with. Like I said, we don't accept it when fighting terrorism when one group tends to be more out of line than is acceptable, and we should not accept it within our own domestic police force.


I will go ahead and post a link in your favor, police need to be like this guy:

[sgreger1]

Let me google it for you: http://www.google.com/m/search?oe=UT...q&ved=0CA8QpwU

See, on the internet if you go in searching for something bad, you will find it. Same goes for something good. I prefer to live my life under the assumption that most people are genuinely good. Naive? Maybe, but what's the alternative? Paranoia? Which sounds better to you?

Regardless of how you prefer to live your life, it does not change the fact that police can come into your house and shoot you with little or no evidence to warrant their doing so. This is unacceptable. Police sign up for a dirty job, we cannot sacrifice our freedom for fake safety. Cops are never there when your home is invaded, but they are there if you are smoking a J in your living room and bullets fly. It is not the way things should be.


They just shot a guy on his porch down in LA because he had a garden hose handle in his hand and some cop driving by thought it was a gun and got out of his car and shot him dead on his own balcony. Imagine if this was your children being shot.

I just read that in some state (forget which one), the police are openly saying that they will stop and harrass/detain you if you open carry, even though open carrying is completely legal in that state. To have the police say they are going to only enforce the laws they feel like enforcing on any given day is wrong, they cannot say "anyone who is black is going to get hassled just for being black", so I don't see how they can openly say that they will hassle/detain you for exercising a right expressedly given to you by local, federal, and constitutional laws.

If I clean my gun in my front yard I have to worry that the police will show up and shoot me in front of my children, even though my cleaning the firearm openly on my property is legal. Stop making excuses man, these are innocent people's lives we are talking about here.

[Roo]

For what it's worth, John Williams, the Seattle Alaskan-Indian woodcarver, was a homeless alcoholic who was quite well acquainted with the downtown beat squad. His murder was entirely wrongful and inexcusable. Don't all cops carry tasers these days? Don't tell me that a 30-something officer armed with a gun and a taser should feel so threatened by a half-drunk homeless man in his 50's stumbling 20 feet away, carrying a wood carving knife that has yet to be proven to have even been open at the time, that lethal force with a GUN was the reasonable response. I don't know what's going with the Seattle Police Force these days, but they have found themselves in a ton of hot water this past year. Google it if interested. Personally, I have not experienced the misappropriation of power and authority that we are discussing here, so my post is not to get in on the bad-mouthing, just to offer some local perspective on the woodcarver. I saw him at least a couple times per week before the incident and still see his friends all the time due to the proximity of my office relative to their preferred places to hang out around town. They are distinctly non-threatening individuals, especially if you are carrying a variety of real weapons as do the police.

[nicodude]

Yes thats another thing, as roo pointed out, almost all officers carry tasers and pepper spray/mace. A police issue taser has a faster incapacitation rate than a .38, and the pepper spray is something similar, both are non lethal (for the most part). Hitting someone with the taser will take them down faster and more efficiently than using the service weapon.


As far as the brazen criminals these days, I agree, criminals are getting extremely brazen, a good deal of crimes happen in day light nowadays, house burglaries are turning into home invasions, criminals carry guns and so on. I know gang violence is an increasing problem as its going on right here in baltimore, just walk down the street and its obvious, guys walking around in their baggy clothes with colored bandanas in their back pockets, asking random people "what are they looking at", so yes if I was a police officer assigned to that area id be scared too.


Bottom line is, and I'm sure everyone here agrees, the police are NOT above the law, they are NOT the law, they are people like everyone else and need to be held accountable for their actions just like everyone else is, I don't care so much about them speeding all the time and other minor stuff but there are some things you just don't do, no matter who you are or what power you hold.

[Redbeard]

For what it's worth, John Williams, the Seattle Alaskan-Indian woodcarver, was a homeless alcoholic who was quite well acquainted with the downtown beat squad. His murder was entirely wrongful and inexcusable. Don't all cops carry tasers these days? Don't tell me that a 30-something officer armed with a gun and a taser should feel so threatened by a half-drunk homeless man in his 50's stumbling 20 feet away, carrying a wood carving knife that has yet to be proven to have even been open at the time, that lethal force with a GUN was the reasonable response. I don't know what's going with the Seattle Police Force these days, but they have found themselves in a ton of hot water this past year. Google it if interested. Personally, I have not experienced the misappropriation of power and authority that we are discussing here, so my post is not to get in on the bad-mouthing, just to offer some local perspective on the woodcarver. I saw him at least a couple times per week before the incident and still see his friends all the time due to the proximity of my office relative to their preferred places to hang out around town. They are distinctly non-threatening individuals, especially if you are carrying a variety of real weapons as do the police.

This was my thought, too. Officers are equipped with more non-lethal ways to incapacitate a suspect today than ever before. Does justified use of force always require deadly force?

[NonServiam]

No offense Nonserviam, I know your one of the good ones........

None taken. Although, it's very disheartening to read many of the comments here, but I don't dismiss them. These comments are being made either from personal experiences or what is conveyed through the media, who I've noticed most of the time don't get things right.

My department does civil forfeitures as well, and it has been a long time practice. If we believe and can articulate that property was gained illegally or used to further fascilitate illegal actions, the property is seized. It's seen as a further disabling blow, as well as a way to fund the budget (one which is broke). Of course, my stance is the War on Drugs is a failure and a war on personal freedom.

But I can honestly say we don't actively search out to harass and detain folks based on the hope we can seize property (at least in my department).

[sgreger1]

For those who saw my clip about the cop who shot the woodcarver for having a pocket knife (who apparently Roo knew personally or at least had talked to/knew his friends), here is the ruling that just came out:

Seattle pays $1.5M to family of hearing-impaired woodcarver shot and killed by police. Dashcam records 4 seconds between warning (from behind) and shooting the man in the back


For those wondering... the cop who blatantly murdered this man for carrying a pocketknife was not charged or punished in any way. He resigned and no charges will be brought against him. I'd like to pretend like i'm surprised.



At 1:57 you can see the dashcam from the other cop car where it shows the man dead on the street after being murdered in broad daylight. Again, the officer did not get in trouble and resigned without issue. He shot this man for having a pocketknife and gave him 4 seconds notice before shooting him several times in the back, and he did not get in trouble.

Again, we all knew how this would end. Cop uses his status as an officer of the law to commit murder and gets off with no hassle and gets to go home to his family without punishment or reprimand. The city used taxpayer money to pay the family off and doesn't even punish the officer, just like the thousand times when it happened before.



This officer should get the death sentence, but police are a protected class who can murder at will without reprimand. Sorry to our snuson cops who I know are good people, but i've just seen this happen too many times and it's left me jaded. Criminal murderers should be put up against a wall and shot, and this officer should be put to the front of the line.

Birk resigned Feb. 16 after the release of a scathing report by the Firearms Review Board report that found, among other problems, that Birk didn’t identify himself as a police officer as he approached Williams from behind. Williams was crossing the intersection while carving on a piece of wood with a legal knife (shown here in a police photo). The knife was folded shut when found by officers.

Williams, who was deaf in one ear, was shot in the side, not facing the officer.

Officer Birk was not criminally charged in the shooting.

Land of the free, where police can murder you for having a closed and completely legal pocketknife and get off scott free, not even a trial or charges brought against him. The officers name is Ian Birk. If I had the money and the time I would fly to Seattle, find this cops home, and protest tirelessly until he was given the death penalty.

[AtreyuKun]

It's apparently the way of the sgreger. Wish I could say it was limited to the US, but this just seems to be the new reality. If you aren't "one of the boys", the establishment can phucking kill you and buy off your family to shut up.
If that kind of shit isn't grounds for us to rise up, I don't know what is.
But you know that won't happen. Theyve lulled the masses into idiocy and apathy with so called entertainment. As long as we have our tv, who cares right?

[NonServiam]

Seattle pays $1.5M to family of hearing-impaired woodcarver shot and killed by police. Dashcam records 4 seconds between warning (from behind) and shooting the man in the back .

I don't know anything about the woodcarver other than what is available here. But from what I've gathered, I think he was probably a kind man and it's quite sad to see his lifeless body lying on the sidewalk.

I would hope this cop didn't start out his day with the thought "I'm gonna kill somebody today if they'll just give me a reason". Poor training, too scared or unreasonable to be a cop...I don't know.

If the cop had been acquainted with the man and had previous knowledge he was deaf in one ear and was a woodcarver, would he have approached the scenario differently? I would hope so. But a man strolling (not running) away from you with a three inch folding pocket knife should not be interpreted as a threat...initially. I would assume he didn't know the man, which leads the cop to any number of split second speculations, i.e. mental disorder, etc...

He wasn't a threat to the officer at the time of the shooting. If he was strolling towards bystanders whom the officer feared for, that adds a little more justification, but not much since the officer didn't state there was any one in harm's way anyway.

Me personally, I don't walk down the street holding an open knife of any size because people today are so easily offended and threatened. I even get strange looks when I'm sitting on a bench and whip out my knife to clean my fingernails or cut a loose string off my shirt!

Now, if a man holding any size knife (open or closed) is APPROACHING me and does not stop or drop the knife, I will drop him. Even the smallest knife can be fatal if properly placed or in the hands of anyone with some training. A person can transverse 20 feet in a matter of seconds towards you. A matter of seconds is just long enough to draw your weapon and get off maybe one or two shots before they're toe to toe with you.

Putting myself in that cop's shoes, I would not have shot. Roo mentioned tasers. If that cop was issued a taser, then yes, that would be an excellent solution. I would love for my department to issue tasers. Pepperspray takes about 30 seconds to really take effect and most of the time also effects the officers. Much less harm is done to the suspect from the barbs and the jolt then 5 cops having to wrestle and beat you into submission. But our city council doesn't see it that way, so we don't have them. A less lethal shotgun (bean bag gun) would be good in this case.

Now to address everyone's dissatisfaction with the gov't. I don't disagree. I'm pretty well pissed off and untrusting of the gov't myself. I think they are a bunch of self-serving, hypocritical, bureaucratic wind bags, and I don't enjoy, nor appreciate being a pawn in their bullshit tactics. In fact, if it wasn't for the pay and benefits, I would be doing something else for a living. The stress and risk in this job just isn't worth not coming home.

Then there are the mentions of "who needs cops anyway?", "they're nothing but corrupt murderers and thieves", etc... Some are! But let's take a look at the solution. We do away with cops and the justice system. Now we're left with roving groups and mobs seeking out their own justice. You think these folks are care about your civil liberties. The old west full of these types and many a innocent man was hung from a tree suspected of cattle theft, etc... Bottom line. We live in a f***d up world. I'd expound more but I'm out of time.

[TheJanitor]

Hell, I don't even think he deserved a taser. You guys can tell by my posts I usually give police the benefit of the doubt, but that video was disturbing, and that cop should get the chair. That being said, I still believe most LEO's are honest, brave, hard working people. The actions of a few do not change that for me. There are a shitload of cops in this country, and I highly doubt they are all murderous psychos.