Data on Nicotine Content of American Dip

[Snusdog]

For me the issue between dip and snus has never been a one to one comparison between the nicotine levels. I get nic from both products but I also get something else from dip along with the nic that I do not find in snus. Let me illustrate what I mean.

A few weeks ago my brother in law tried to kill me with several Jagermeister-Redbull shots. After a couple of shots, I could feel the effect of the all too familiar Jager. At the same time, I also could feel the very distinct effect of the Red Bull. One shot- two distinct effects.

It is the same with dip- one pinch, two distinct effects. However, I never noticed this distinction and always considered it one and the same fix until I went off of dip completely (as long as I used snus and dip together, the whatever extra was still in my system). When I made the break from dip and went to snus exclusively I noticed it missing from the fix and my gums actually craved it. Also, the withdrawals are very different between the two products. The feeling of being without snus for an extended period of time is different from what I felt when I had to go with out a dip longer than I wanted.

Now I do not have a lab and so I cannot say definitively why this is the case. However, I don’t think the answer (one way or another) is going to be found on the ingredient lists that we keep seeing. The reason is this: to the best of my knowledge, the ingredient lists that I have seen only deal with those ingredients added at the final phase of production. There are several steps prior to the mixing and flavoring stage that contribute to the final composition of the product. For example, fir curing a leaf will change its chemical composition in a way that air curing will not. Yet this important distinction will never show up on an ingredients list.

The result is that these lists along with a simple comparison of the nicotine levels will provide us with only a partial picture at best.

dog 8)

[LHB]

I hear you Snusdog. Even though the "kick" seemed similar, it was smoother, cleaner and had a less abrupt "come down" than the dip, if I'm expressing my subjective impressions correctly. Also, I did not use any dip yesterday, and am feeling sluggish, but much more relaxed and less prone to outbursts of temper today, even though I've only been using a minimal amount of American dip.

The place where I really noticed it was in trying to make the transition from Kools to Natual American Spirit menthols. The NAS's are supposed to have all this free base nicotine, and the idiotic anti tobacco people who have absolutely no first hand experience with tobacco of any kind have been ranting that NAS's are much more addictive than regular cigs because of this extremely high nicotine content. Yet the NAS's did very little to kill my craving for a cheap Kool, and once I was able to make the transition, it's been much easier to keep my consumption to 1-5 per day, which I could never do with Kools or Newports. Many other smokers resort the exact same difficulties in making the transition, and that after having made it, it was much easier to keep their smoking under control.

So my personal experience supports yours that there is something in American dip and commercial cigarettes that affect you physically and mentally, and upon which you become dependent in addition to the nicotine. It's the same all over; you get a much different buzz from 101 proof Wild Turkey than from 100 proof Stolichnaya Vodka. The active ingredient in each is ethyl alchohol.

I wish some people with actual experience with tobacco would do some serious research in this area; as a professional economist who does a fair amount of quantitative work and econometric hypothesis testing and forecasting, I can say that the science surrounding tobacco addiction is amazingly bad, driven far more by politics and money than a search for knowledge and understanding. Not that my discipline can't be just as bad in that area. I'm just saying...

[Snusify]

I'm a new Snus user, but have used American dip off and on for many years. When I first tried Los snus, I went through the ritual of "baking" it and putting it behind my upper lip. You could feel the nicotine, but with General Los and a pretty big pris, it was still nowhere near the hit you get from Copenhagen or Skoal Long Cut. So tonite I tried using it the way I used to use American dip, behind the lower lip and toward the back of my mouth.

Suprise! Pretty much the same hit as American dip, but it tastes so much better and doesn't make you salivate nearly as much. I also tried it with portions. It seems you get a significantly stronger nicotine hit when you "lower deck" snus as opposed to "upper decking" it. In addition, if you have an outdated or dried out can of portions, it seems you get more flavor from putting it down below, maybe because of the extra salivary glands. Has anyone else had the same experience?

my prillas turn to mud in the lower deck so use snus as it was intended in the upper deck.

I guess everyone experience is different.

But for the reasons i stated in my previous post dip appears stronger but its not.

copenhagen snuff is a favourite of mine, it delivers a big hit the finer the grain the more surface area of mouth is exposed to the tobacco. But its a short lived experience in comparison to snus. Cope snuff after about 20 mins has lost most of its zing.

Snus typically stays in my mouth for 1 or 2 hours constantly delivering flavour and nicotine.

As stated in the post above this one dip and snus are 2 different experiences.

I like them both.

Snus is way more relaxed and a longer lasting experience.

Dip is rough and ready and it all about juice.

[Snusdog]

I hear you Snusdog. Even though the "kick" seemed similar, it was smoother, cleaner and had a less abrupt "come down" than the dip, if I'm expressing my subjective impressions correctly. Also, I did not use any dip yesterday, and am feeling sluggish, but much more relaxed and less prone to outbursts of temper today, even though I've only been using a minimal amount of American dip.

The place where I really noticed it was in trying to make the transition from Kools to Natual American Spirit menthols. The NAS's are supposed to have all this free base nicotine, and the idiotic anti tobacco people who have absolutely no first hand experience with tobacco of any kind have been ranting that NAS's are much more addictive than regular cigs because of this extremely high nicotine content. Yet the NAS's did very little to kill my craving for a cheap Kool, and once I was able to make the transition, it's been much easier to keep my consumption to 1-5 per day, which I could never do with Kools or Newports. Many other smokers resort the exact same difficulties in making the transition, and that after having made it, it was much easier to keep their smoking under control.

So my personal experience supports yours that there is something in American dip and commercial cigarettes that affect you physically and mentally, and upon which you become dependent in addition to the nicotine. It's the same all over; you get a much different buzz from 101 proof Wild Turkey than from 100 proof Stolichnaya Vodka. The active ingredient in each is ethyl alchohol.

I wish some people with actual experience with tobacco would do some serious research in this area; as a professional economist who does a fair amount of quantitative work and econometric hypothesis testing and forecasting, I can say that the science surrounding tobacco addiction is amazingly bad, driven far more by politics and money than a search for knowledge and understanding. Not that my discipline can't be just as bad in that area. I'm just saying...

Great post LHB!!! Thanks.

Also, welcome to the Forum.

[Liandri]

Ok as far as serious research is concerned, I want you to prove to me that there is something in Moist snuff that is completely different that other forms of oral tobacco when you have almost every company that strait up gives you a list of additives in their product. I mean every conversation regarding this just turns into a pissing contest that makes everyone look stupid as hell. You're all basing this on a biased hunch. SO go on, don't hunch it anymore and put me in my place. Whats in American products that hooks you in so much and slowly kills ya while it goes? eh?

I did my own experiement, want to hear it??? I put copenhagen in a prismaster and put it in my upper lip. ABSOLUTELY FREAKING WONDERFUL AND STUPIFIED THAT I NEVER TRIED IT BEFORE. Then I put it in my bottom lip. Bottom lip got a little pickled.

Conclusion? When I put moist snuff in my upper lip, I tricked my body into thinking it was godly and healthy snus so therefore nothing happened, infact my body got happy because it was a wonderful taste. When I put it in my bottom the tobacco triggered its secret ingredients to kill my body and make me horribly addicted. Thats why my lip got pickled. nononno its not because I haven't done it in a while maybe my bottom lip needed to get/be/feel "Acclimated" to the moist snuff. Oh wait, or is that word just allow for snus? IT MUST BE because of all this HORRRRRRRIBLE crap the big bad american companies put in their death products. The sweeds and snus would NEVER do something like that. They too busy thinking of the children and helping grannies cross streets.

snusjus is right that you do, naturally, take alot more of a pinch of moist snuff that yo would snus. Mainly because you can fit more in your bottom lip than in your upper lip. I tried one gram on moist snuff in my bottom lip and it literally just got lost, broke up and scattered all around. Which wasn't bad at all. Thats where the pouches come in really handy.

[LaZeR]

Ok as far as serious research is concerned, I want you to prove to me that there is something in Moist snuff that is completely different that other forms of oral tobacco when you have almost every company that strait up gives you a list of additives in their product. I mean every conversation regarding this just turns into a pissing contest that makes everyone look stupid as hell. You're all basing this on a biased hunch. SO go on, don't hunch it anymore and put me in my place. Whats in American products that hooks you in so much and slowly kills ya while it goes? eh?

I did my own experiement, want to hear it??? I put copenhagen in a prismaster and put it in my upper lip. ABSOLUTELY FREAKING WONDERFUL AND STUPIFIED THAT I NEVER TRIED IT BEFORE. Then I put it in my bottom lip. Bottom lip got a little pickled.

Conclusion? When I put moist snuff in my upper lip, I tricked my body into thinking it was godly and healthy snus so therefore nothing happened, infact my body got happy because it was a wonderful taste. When I put it in my bottom the tobacco triggered its secret ingredients to kill my body and make me horribly addicted. Thats why my lip got pickled. nononno its not because I haven't done it in a while maybe my bottom lip needed to get/be/feel "Acclimated" to the moist snuff. Oh wait, or is that word just allow for snus? IT MUST BE because of all this HORRRRRRRIBLE crap the big bad american companies put in their death products. The sweeds and snus would NEVER do something like that. They too busy thinking of the children and helping grannies cross streets.

snusjus is right that you do, naturally, take alot more of a pinch of moist snuff that yo would snus. Mainly because you can fit more in your bottom lip than in your upper lip. I tried one gram on moist snuff in my bottom lip and it literally just got lost, broke up and scattered all around. Which wasn't bad at all. Thats where the pouches come in really handy.

DON'T TELL THIS TO MY FIANCE OR I WILL CATCH HELL FOR USING THIS SNUS WHICH I TOLD HER IS LESS HARMFUL THAN AMERICAN DIP.

/Thread.

:lol:

[LHB]

A brief response, Liandri. A particular product or activity attracts what are now called "connoisseurs" if there is a significant aspect to the enjoyment or appreciation of the thing that cannot be subject to objective, empirical measurement and comparison. My hobby is high end music reproduction equipment. Electrical engineering can measure most of the operating parameters of just about any audio component, but all conniosseurs of subjective audio will readily assert that components that measure identically can sound radically different.

Likewise with Snus and other moist tobacco products. Which is why a forum like this is so useful. I'd be much more inclined to trust the informed, subjective opinion of people with experience in the various aspects of Snus enjoyment, including yours, than a double blind study that attempted to reject or confirm a particular hypothesis. It's no escape to argue that something is "all in one's mind" because the subjective impression of every objective phenomenon (which takes place in the mind) is what counts in determining how one evaluates it.

I can't prove anything regarding the subjective experience of the vices I enjoy, but I learn a lot by comparing opinions with people like yourself, who might have a different way than mine of forumulating conclusions. Rather than making everyone look stupid, however, I think it makes everyone look interested and open to new knowledge. Maybe politicians would be well advised to check in on SnusOn every now and then, if for no other reason than to learn how people with very different perspectives can come to a better understanding of what their minds and senses are telling them about their experiences, despite the lack of "scientific" evidence to support their conclusions. My apologies for my longwindedness.

[Liandri]

I have absolutely no problem talking about, chiming in, discussing, anything snus and more specifically *anything* tobacco related. But As mentioned in several posts the fact that you consider this a product for connoisseurs means you are simply using it out of novelty and not accepting the fact that it is a tobacco product which affects people differently and has its own unique lists of dangers and regrets. Aside from that you're "fancy word" quota has been well over reached and you must pay a surtax on your last post.

I'm not going to sit and listen to blind theory about why something is such and have it horribly discredited without even the slightest amount of insight. Would I love to see Snus succeed throughout the world? Yes, but just because its banned in over half of it doesn't mean if you get your hands on a can you immediately raise your pinky and say poppycock.

I told you before lazer the margin of hazard between the two products nowadays is sooooooo short in between there is almost no difference whatsoever. Is it "safer"? Yes. By how much? Not much. Will Swedish snus ever have a brand that tastes like any Moist snuff in America? Hell no. (Then it would be catered to children, ya gotta think of the children). OH btw remember we're in America, where everyone sues everyone because of every little thing. So you can't come at me with "look at the court cases". All Moist snuff affects all people differently. To some, enjoy your cancer in 6 months, to others enjoy living to 150 without a problem.

[LaZeR]

I told you before lazer the margin of hazard between the two products nowadays is sooooooo short in between there is almost no difference whatsoever. Is it "safer"? Yes. By how much? Not much.

I concur. This topic is obviously subjective to one's own experiences with given product. I also feel that all tobacco products while harmful in some form, a given form can be less harmful.

I erred in my blind post in the other thread with that link containing all the so called "ingredients" of traditional smokeless tobaccos, namely the one that pointed to the dreaded - chipped glass / fiberglass BS. (Didn't even realize that mis-information was in there.)

With that said, for whatever the reason I can honestly say "Personally" that switching off the Copenhagen dip after 30 years and onto snus & nasal snuff has (at least for the time being) eliminated my heartburn and sore/ridged gums. Aside from the 'health' aspects, I can also say for certainty that 'snus' has enabled me to carry on with my relationship without so much disgust & offending others since this eliminates the spit cups and 'dip' teeth - (although I haven't quite mastered the art of los'ing yet to perfection so thankfully there are a plentiful variety of portions snus when this is of concern).

[Liandri]

Your fiance would love you more if you gave up tobacco use all together! She pointed a gun to my head and told me to say that.

[LaZeR]

Your fiance would love you more if you gave up tobacco use all together! She pointed a gun to my head and told me to say that.

No she wouldn't!

[Snusdog]

You're all basing this on a biased hunch.

Liandri, yes I readily admit that my position is based on a hunch. However, I do take issue that my hunch is blind or somehow whimsical. It is based on 20+ years of experience with one product and 3 years experience with another product. Likewise, I take issue that my hunch is wholly subjective. I am not willing to concede that point. Instead, I find that it is shared by several others. This sharedness of the experience does not necessarily validate my explanation of the common experience (dip sucks). However, it does move the endeavor to explain the experience beyond the arena of the purely private.

Yet all that said in the end my position remains a hunch (not a blind, groundless, or private hunch- but a hunch nonetheless).

Given that, I think you and I view the idea of a hunch in very different lights. To me a hunch is not a pejorative term nor is it contrary to science or somehow intellectually demeaning. Rather, the notion of a hunch is the birth of almost all (if not all) science. It is the where science begins to look and the why science feels the need to look. Without the hunch we would all still be sitting in caves somewhere grunting.

I also think that is fair to point out that your supposition is as much a hunch as our position. I know you have an ingredients list but that list reflects only one small part of a very complex process. I know that you put Copenhagen in your upper lip and found nirvana. But it was nonetheless your lip and not a spectrometer. In other words, Liandri, you and I have been using the same lab.

Finally, you have spent a great deal of time lambasting folks (and rightly so) for making wild and blind accusations. Therefore, the pot feels the need to ask the kettle one thing

I told you before lazer the margin of hazard between the two products nowadays is sooooooo short in between there is almost no difference whatsoever.

How do you know this? Where is the comparative data? As it stands now, it sounds a lot like the very BS that has had you writhing with frustration.

In the end, I think this debate is important (if done with respect) and I have enjoyed reading your posts. I hope that we will both continue to make our voices heard in a manner that is constructive and that might even shed some light on the issue.

Keep me honest ol man and I’ll do my best to return the favor. Now get busy. You owe me a little comparative data or a retraction.

Dog 8)