C-Span2 today at 2pm

[Mohave]

But nowhere does it say the Postal Service CAN'T deliver it, as many folks have said.

Oh yes it does. In very plain language. That is the whole point of the PACT Act. To put a stop what its supporters like to call "internet trafficking" in tobacco.

• `Sec. 1716E. Tobacco products as nonmailable
  `(a) Prohibition- All cigarettes and smokeless tobacco (as those terms are defined in section 1 of the Act of October 19, 1949, commonly referred to as the Jenkins Act) are nonmailable and shall not be deposited in or carried through the mails. The United States Postal Service shall not accept for delivery or transmit through the mails any package that it knows or has reasonable cause to believe contains any cigarettes or smokeless tobacco made nonmailable by this subsection.
  
  SEC. 3. PENALTIES.
  `(a) Criminal Penalties-
  `(1) IN GENERAL- Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly violates any provision of this Act shall be guilty of a felony and shall be imprisoned not more than 3 years, fined under title 18, United States Code, or both.
  [list:2ea06084ba]

[/list:u:2ea06084ba]

[sagedil]

SEC. 907. Tobacco product standards.

“(a) In General.—

“(1) Special rule for cigarettes.—A cigarette or any of its component parts (including the tobacco, filter, or paper) shall not contain, as a constituent (including a smoke constituent) or additive, an artificial or natural flavor (other than tobacco or menthol) or an herb or spice, including strawberry, grape, orange, clove, cinnamon, pineapple, vanilla, coconut, licorice, cocoa, chocolate, cherry, or coffee, that is a characterizing flavor of the tobacco product or tobacco smoke. Nothing in this subparagraph shall be construed to limit the Secretary’s authority to take action under this section or other sections of this Act applicable to menthol or any artificial or natural flavor, herb, or spice not specified in this paragraph.

“(2) Revision of tobacco product standards.—The Secretary may revise the tobacco product standards in paragraph (1) in accordance with subsection (b).

“(3) Tobacco product standards.—The Secretary may adopt tobacco product standards in addition to those in paragraph (1) if the Secretary finds that a tobacco product standard is appropriate for the protection of the public health. This finding shall be determined with respect to the risks and benefits to the population as a whole, including users and non-users of the tobacco product, and taking into account—

“(A) the increased or decreased likelihood that existing users of tobacco products will stop using such products; and

“(B) the increased or decreased likelihood that those who do not use tobacco products will start using such products.

“(4) Content of tobacco product standards.—A tobacco product standard established under this section for a tobacco product—

“(A) shall include provisions that are appropriate for the protection of the public health, including provisions, where appropriate—

“(i) for the reduction of nicotine yields of the product;

“(ii) for the reduction or elimination of other constituents, including smoke constituents, or harmful components of the product; or

“(iii) relating to any other requirement under subparagraph (B);

“(B) shall, where appropriate for the protection of the public health, include—

“(i) provisions respecting the construction, components, ingredients, additives, constituents, including smoke constituents, and properties of the tobacco product;

“(ii) provisions for the testing (on a sample basis or, if necessary, on an individual basis) of the tobacco product;

“(iii) provisions for the measurement of the tobacco product characteristics of the tobacco product;

“(iv) provisions requiring that the results of each or of certain of the tests of the tobacco product required to be made under clause (ii) show that the tobacco product is in conformity with the portions of the standard for which the test or tests were required; and

“(v) a provision requiring that the sale and distribution of the tobacco product be restricted but only to the extent that the sale and distribution of a tobacco product may be restricted under a regulation under section 906(d); and

“(C) shall, where appropriate, require the use and prescribe the form and content of labeling for the proper use of the tobacco product.

“(5) Periodic re-evaluation of tobacco product standards.—The Secretary shall provide for periodic evaluation of tobacco product standards established under this section to determine whether such standards should be changed to reflect new medical, scientific, or other technological data. The Secretary may provide for testing under paragraph (4)(B) by any person.

“(6) Involvement of other agencies; informed persons.—In carrying out duties under this section, the Secretary shall endeavor to—

“(A) use personnel, facilities, and other technical support available in other Federal agencies;

“(B) consult with other Federal agencies concerned with standard-setting and other nationally or internationally recognized standard-setting entities; and

“(C) invite appropriate participation, through joint or other conferences, workshops, or other means, by informed persons representative of scientific, professional, industry, agricultural, or consumer organizations who in the Secretary’s judgment can make a significant contribution.

--- --- ---

I don't see it. Seems to me, very clear, it ONLY applies to Cigarettes. It even says, "Special Rules for Cigarettes"

[Mohave]

You just posted the text of a completely different bill, from the year 2007. An early version of the FDA legislation when it was first proposed, in a bill which died at the end the last congress, and is not under consideration, and is not the PACT ACT which you referred to or the current FDA legislation.

[Lucky Striker]

“(3) Tobacco product standards.—The Secretary may adopt tobacco product standards in addition to those in paragraph (1) if the Secretary finds that a tobacco product standard is appropriate for the protection of the public health. This finding shall be determined with respect to the risks and benefits to the population as a whole, including users and non-users of the tobacco product, and taking into account—

This gives the Secretary the right to apply the same laws regarding cigarettes to TOBACCO PRODUCTS in general. This was a sneaky amendment thrown in by (I believe) Joseph Lieberman and was one of the amendments Richard Burr fought to have removed.

[sagedil]

But nowhere does it say the Postal Service CAN'T deliver it, as many folks have said.

Oh yes it does. In very plain language. That is the whole point of the PACT Act. To put a stop what its supporters like to call "internet trafficking" in tobacco.

[l

Duh, of course.

Still, you see anywhere in the bill that private companies like UPS or Fedex can't deliver, other than requiring them to verify age with a photo ID??

[Lucky Striker]

Duh, of course.

Still, you see anywhere in the bill that private companies like UPS or Fedex can't deliver, other than requiring them to verify age with a photo ID??

No laws banning them from doing so, but we do have blanket statements by Fed Ex and UPS that stated that they would opt to just not deliver tobacco. (Of course, this was in regards to the other law, but I see no reason why they wouldn't just agree to start now instead of a year or so down the road.)

[Yamaha760]

They are really muddying the internet sales waters with the PACT Act. If it passes I can see local taxes being charged on everything you buy online. Why not pass a law that says you must provide your own health care if you decide to smoke or use tobacco. Greed......that is all this is period. There are other ways to go here without taxing just tobacco users.

[Snusophile]

Thank you sage for your comforting words of wisdom. :lol:

I was quite a bit worried about PACT, and of course I still am, and partly because I'm too ****in lazy to check it out for myself. But, I'd like to make notice to everyone that NOW is not the time to **** up BuySnus and Northerner by ordering enough snus to last an ice age. This only creates shortages and strain on the system. If you want to stock up, I would suggest doing it little by little. Remember what happened in 1929 when the stock market crashed and everyone ran to the bank to draw their life savings? Capiche!

As for myself, right now, as I am feeling a bit nervous, over the next few weeks I will be ordering some different varities of snus and nasal snuff I always wanted but never could justify getting. I could spend my days enjoying snus and singing to the tune of "There's always tomorrow." but Right now, I think "live for today, cautiously" is a lot better applicable.

However, I reiterate, now is NOT the time to panic. If snus eventually is banned, I wont feel too terrible. I have no regrets at all. My using snus was never originally meant to be forever, even though I probably would at this point. I have achieved my goal, 1 year smoke free, and I'm not going back--with or without snus. I'm just glad I got over a years worth of enjoyment and fun out of snus, and whatever happens I will look back on it fondly.

Sorry for the rambling, disjointed post.

Cheers!

[Lucky Striker]

However, I reiterate, now is NOT the time to panic.

LOL

[Snusophile]

However, I reiterate, now is NOT the time to panic.

LOL

Does everyone remember the scene from Airplane, where one woman was going completely apeshit crazy and they had a whole line of people waiting to slap some sense into her...

[Mohave]

Still, you see anywhere in the bill that private companies like UPS or Fedex can't deliver, other than requiring them to verify age with a photo ID??

No, I don't, and neither do the professionals who've thoroughly reviewed and monitored it through the legislative process. It does not say "common carriers" (UPS & FedEX, etc) flat out can't deliver. It does impose onerous requirements on any common carrier which might want to continue to deliver, including identity verification requirements that go far beyond merely asking to see a driver license. No such system currently exists, and vendors in the business are highly dubious about whether any carrier will find it practical to deal with that, and at what kind of obscene cost. The legislation's sponsors have made it clear they'd be quite happy if none ever do. But while it DOES totally ban shipping tobacco through the mail, it does NOT explicitly ban it from UPS or FedEx IF AND ONLY IF they somehow deal with the requirements for identification and verification of the recipient through government databases.

[HK11]

Im not going totally apeshit but I am buying larger amounts and have figured out a freezing rotation. If I buy extra each time now, if the time does come where I cannot order anymore I wont have to try and buy a shitload at once.

If I could at least buy general in my area I wouldnt worry about stocking up.

[Lucky Striker]

However, I reiterate, now is NOT the time to panic.

LOL

Does everyone remember the scene from Airplane, where one woman was going completely apeshit crazy and they had a whole line of people waiting to slap some sense into her...

Basically snus as we know it changes forever as soon as Obama signs this law, and we may not be able to purchase it AT ALL, but "NOW is not the time to worry?" When will that time be? After we can't order it at ALL? The time to NOT worry was the last ten years when the Republicans shot this bill down for a straight decade. The time to START worrying began when we elected the officials that passed this law. The time to start PANICKING began at 2:45 PM EST today.

I say again, LOL. :lol:

[Mohave]

I think this would be an excellent time to panic, but slowly, gradually, in a controlled and sensible manner. It will be a matter of months, not days or just a few weeks.

The earliest date PACT can be theoretically effective is 90 days from the date it becomes law, according to the language of the legislation. The probability that it will become law in this session of Congress is nearly (but not quite) 100% since it is considered an easier "cleaner" vote than the FDA bill, with a broader coalition of busybodies behind it, and it is already on the Senate calendar with the backing of the leadership as a priority.

So the worst possible case, considering the legislative calendar, is that PACT finally becomes effective around Halloween. One has at least four months at a minimum for stocking up.

The worst time to stock up is near the end, when the supply chain is likely to become disrupted. A number of us here have experience with that through the effects of the recent "SCHIP" legislation on other products. Really big orders are also problematic for other reasons (going through UPS instead of mail enhances the likelyhood of creating customs issues) so in my opinion a sensible course is to order somewhat more than current use, and somewhat more frequently, over a period of months. But not to try to order a humongous stockpile all at once immediately, and even less sensible to pretend nothing will happen and panic at the end.

[sagedil]

Still, you see anywhere in the bill that private companies like UPS or Fedex can't deliver, other than requiring them to verify age with a photo ID??

No, I don't, and neither do the professionals who've thoroughly reviewed and monitored it through the legislative process. It does not say "common carriers" (UPS & FedEX, etc) flat out can't deliver. It does impose onerous requirements on any common carrier which might want to continue to deliver, including identity verification requirements that go far beyond merely asking to see a driver license. No such system currently exists, and vendors in the business are highly dubious about whether any carrier will find it practical to deal with that, and at what kind of obscene cost. The legislation's sponsors have made it clear they'd be quite happy if none ever do. But while it DOES totally ban shipping tobacco through the mail, it does NOT explicitly ban it from UPS or FedEx IF AND ONLY IF they somehow deal with the requirements for identification and verification of the recipient through government databases.

Then we are both reading it exactly the same. I hear you. Still, the requirements really don't seem to be more tan Fedex already has to do with certain types of shipments. And if there is money to be made, I expect that some, as long as they can, will

I know it is aboutto get a bunch more expensive. But I look at it this way. Right now, Snus saves me about 70% from what I spent when I smoked. When all this goes into effect that might be down to 20-30%. But I expect I will still be saving some money over smoking, and a bunch happier using snus instead of ciggs. For reasons I have posted often, I will never give up nicotine, even if that means I have to go back to smoking. ALL I really care about is the ability to still get snus.

For now, all I can really do is cross my fingers and hope.