PACT ACT - Let's act! We can't let this pass.

[chadizzy1]

Wow, folks here are wildly spectacularly unrealistic on this, both on the politics and the substantive effect.

While you all are busy agreeing with one another that snus is here to stay the Senate just voted 84-11 to limit further debate & amendment to the companion legislation (HR 1256) on FDA tobacco control, which will make snus an illegal unapproved contraband tobacco product, no matter how or where it is sold, along with any tobacco with any kind of flavoring & anything else not already in widespread continuous unmodified US distribution since before February 2007. It is the explicit intent that smokeless products such as snus and dissolvables and other tobacco alternatives "new" to the US be completely shut down, and between the two bills it appears they will be very effective at doing so. "For the children. For your protection" That FDA legislation also passed the House easily, and it will be swiftly and proudly signed into law by the current President trumpeting his action to "protect children." He was a cosponsor as a Senator, and campaigned as a supporter of it and of this legislation.

The companion PACT legislation cutting off delivery from overseas and from internet vendors will also pass the Senate even more easily. The only thing that prevented both of these bills from becoming law last year was vigorous opposition from the previous administration and creative procedural delay by the minority party in the Senate, and as a result of the last election there is now no significant opposition left in either the executive or legislative branch to even try to slow it down. The current political leadership, which has unchallenged control of every branch of government, is doing exactly what it said it would do on this, whether you choose to notice it or believe it or not. "To protect you, for the children." You are expected to be grateful.

While you are chortling that there's no problem, the game is already over. You are screwed. It is done. And your agreement that it is not happening is of no consequence whatsoever. You are getting exactly what you voted for, whether you think so or not.

quite a negative post, but this is the truth. how many times over the years have things been done that people thought were good for us? how many people have commited acts in the name of truth, love, and faith that turned out to be done for the wrong reasons?

hitler was completely convinced that he was right. call him insane, or whatever you may call him (and i DON'T condone his actions), but in his mind, he was doing what was right. obama believes his actions are right, as did bush, bush sr, clinton, and so on and so forth. what can we do? this stems down to the basic belief that the american people have a say in the political system. this is sadly not true. over the years, i've realized that the concept of "of the people" has dwindled down into an understanding of "the elite". those who have the power in their hands are guiding us towards a future they feel is correct, but in the eyes of those around, we know that things are not going in a direction they should be.

i vote, in every single election. maybe it's because i feel like my vote may count. i will continue to vote. it gives me a sense that i'm contributing to something. whether that's right or wrong, i don't know. as legislation like this continues to pass, it always leaves me wondering - what else? if a form of reduced harm tobacco that will cause people to quit smoking is being shut down, it seems that we are adopting the EU philosphy. "quit or die". has anyone been following the "high fructose corn syrup" debate going on? this is something i've recently discovered and been reading in to. i won't post it on here, it's alot of information, but i suggest you read into it.

the only thing i can say, is i wish i discovered snus more recently and became more involved than i am now. i went and started my website not just because i like snus, but because i quit smoking with it and wanted to help people do the same. it just REALLY pisses me off that something good comes along that can actually help people quit an addictive habit, and those damn phrases get thrown around...

"it's for the kids!"
and our favorite...."terrorism".

if those are latched on to anything, through fear and paranoia people will bend and buckle at the whim of every bill that passes. ron paul once said that it would take a great revolution to get this country back to where it needs to be. our government has grown so much. but as government grows, we find ourself loosing our basic freedoms, including the right to choose activities which we may feel are right. when obama was first running for president, he said "he would investigate decriminalizing marijuana", and although i don't use marijuana, i thought it was a step in the right direction into allowing american's basic freedoms. and you know what? as soon as he won, someone asked the same question and a representative said "pres. obama does not have any plans to decriminalize marijuana or investigate further into this." they will say ANYTHING to win, and once they have it they will turn their back on the promises they made.

it's a sad state this country has turned to.

[Kanlee]

Well I sent my couple of letters to my Missouri Reps.I hope they will listen.I smoked for 35 years and really do not want to go back.I also smoked a pipe in later years but was not a real pipe smoker as I could not help but inhale,the only way I felt satisfied.
Truthfully I would rather smoke but could feel it was effecting me more and more as I got older,the snus keeps me somewhat sane.

[Kvlt]

Wow, folks here are wildly spectacularly unrealistic on this, both on the politics and the substantive effect.

While you all are busy agreeing with one another that snus is here to stay the Senate just voted 84-11 to limit further debate & amendment to the companion legislation (HR 1256) on FDA tobacco control, which will make snus an illegal unapproved contraband tobacco product, no matter how or where it is sold, along with any tobacco with any kind of flavoring & anything else not already in widespread continuous unmodified US distribution since before February 2007. It is the explicit intent that smokeless products such as snus and dissolvables and other tobacco alternatives "new" to the US be completely shut down, and between the two bills it appears they will be very effective at doing so. "For the children. For your protection" That FDA legislation also passed the House easily, and it will be swiftly and proudly signed into law by the current President trumpeting his action to "protect children." He was a cosponsor as a Senator, and campaigned as a supporter of it and of this legislation.

The companion PACT legislation cutting off delivery from overseas and from internet vendors will also pass the Senate even more easily. The only thing that prevented both of these bills from becoming law last year was vigorous opposition from the previous administration and creative procedural delay by the minority party in the Senate, and as a result of the last election there is now no significant opposition left in either the executive or legislative branch to even try to slow it down. The current political leadership, which has unchallenged control of every branch of government, is doing exactly what it said it would do on this, whether you choose to notice it or believe it or not. "To protect you, for the children." You are expected to be grateful.

While you are chortling that there's no problem, the game is already over. You are screwed. It is done. And your agreement that it is not happening is of no consequence whatsoever. You are getting exactly what you voted for, whether you think so or not.

quite a negative post, but this is the truth. how many times over the years have things been done that people thought were good for us? how many people have commited acts in the name of truth, love, and faith that turned out to be done for the wrong reasons?

hitler was completely convinced that he was right. call him insane, or whatever you may call him (and i DON'T condone his actions), but in his mind, he was doing what was right. obama believes his actions are right, as did bush, bush sr, clinton, and so on and so forth. what can we do? this stems down to the basic belief that the american people have a say in the political system. this is sadly not true. over the years, i've realized that the concept of "of the people" has dwindled down into an understanding of "the elite". those who have the power in their hands are guiding us towards a future they feel is correct, but in the eyes of those around, we know that things are not going in a direction they should be.

i vote, in every single election. maybe it's because i feel like my vote may count. i will continue to vote. it gives me a sense that i'm contributing to something. whether that's right or wrong, i don't know. as legislation like this continues to pass, it always leaves me wondering - what else? if a form of reduced harm tobacco that will cause people to quit smoking is being shut down, it seems that we are adopting the EU philosphy. "quit or die". has anyone been following the "high fructose corn syrup" debate going on? this is something i've recently discovered and been reading in to. i won't post it on here, it's alot of information, but i suggest you read into it.

the only thing i can say, is i wish i discovered snus more recently and became more involved than i am now. i went and started my website not just because i like snus, but because i quit smoking with it and wanted to help people do the same. it just REALLY pisses me off that something good comes along that can actually help people quit an addictive habit, and those damn phrases get thrown around...

"it's for the kids!"
and our favorite...."terrorism".

if those are latched on to anything, through fear and paranoia people will bend and buckle at the whim of every bill that passes. ron paul once said that it would take a great revolution to get this country back to where it needs to be. our government has grown so much. but as government grows, we find ourself loosing our basic freedoms, including the right to choose activities which we may feel are right. when obama was first running for president, he said "he would investigate decriminalizing marijuana", and although i don't use marijuana, i thought it was a step in the right direction into allowing american's basic freedoms. and you know what? as soon as he won, someone asked the same question and a representative said "pres. obama does not have any plans to decriminalize marijuana or investigate further into this." they will say ANYTHING to win, and once they have it they will turn their back on the promises they made.

it's a sad state this country has turned to.

I can't agree with this post any more.

Did you vote for Ron Paul?

I too have read the high fructose debates. I try to go only sugar, but anymore as you know that's next to impossible. Bread even has the damn shit in it.

If snus becomes banned I don't know what I would do. I don't believe Snus is really a "quit smoking" product, anymore than a fancy restaurant is a "quit eating junk food" product. We just found a superior form.

[lxskllr]

If snus becomes banned I don't know what I would do. I don't believe Snus is really a "quit smoking" product, anymore than a fancy restaurant is a "quit eating junk food" product. We just found a superior form.

That's my position on snus. I started snusing with no intention of quitting cigarettes; It just kind of happened.

This whole deal just kind of pisses me off. I've been very disenchanted with modern life lately. Any kind of freedom you think you may have is just an illusion. Everybody's a pawn in someone else's power play. The alleged democracy in America is over rated also. There's something to be said for taking power by force. That's really grass roots change ;^)

[chadizzy1]

Did you vote for Ron Paul?

he did get my vote in the republican primaries. he is the FIRST politician i have seen in YEARS who seems like he had the american's best interests in mind. the first one that didn't seem full of shit.

[spirit72]

If you are writing your senator, do not email it. Every time you send an email, you will just receive back a canned email that was automatically generated. Your email will just be deleted, I am sure without being read.

Just wanted to second this, as it's a great suggestion.

If you're going to write your Senators, send them a letter typed on paper, personalized, spellchecked and grammatically correct. Take the time to do it. It has a better chance of actually being read by the Senator, and it will convey that this is an issue you feel strongly about.

[spirit72]

the only part that gets me is they threw in "terrorist", to make this bill scary. saying that terrorist groups are profiting, that's why we need to stop this, blah blah blah. it's our governments big thing, throwing around words like that to strike fear into the hearts of the american people..

Huh? It's common knowledge that Osama Bin Laden hawks Newports in Oklahoma. He's been doing it for centuries.

Dude, why do you guys hate America?


/snark

[oregonrain]

I'm not sure if the post ^ was a joke, but lol.
Don't have time to read the whole thread but my question is this: If this bill gets passed by the senate, how much time before it goes into act. I would like to know this so I can be prepared and buy a years worth of snus.

[Lucky Striker]

Mojave, whatever you do DO NOT blame the Democrats or the current administration. Sagedil will have to "correct" you. :lol:

[Mohave]

I'm sure that's something that should concern me, though at the moment I really can't think of why. But if that is what someone really cares about, you're welcome to have at it all night long 'till the testosterone fueled flame thrower melts. I have other priorities on my mind, such as: How many snus rolls are truly practical for me to keep frozen, and for how long?

I'd really like a “correction” to first come crashing down upon the heads of the 179 sponsors of HR 1256, of whom 165 (92%) are from one political party. When fully implemented it will effectively outlaw alternative tobacco products such as snus within the United States, that is the explicitly stated intent of the sponsors as they have repeatedly said in public on the Congressional Record, repeated again during debate on the Senate floor day before yesterday, as well as during their campaigns for office, and now it will most likely be signed into law within about a week or so.

I guess the cognitive dissonance will be interesting to watch, as it will with a lot of other things in the next few years that won't fit into the Rorschach inkblot test fantasies that people tend to project from their imaginations onto whatever politicians they prefer for cultural and psychosocial/emotional symbolic reasons, but I really don't give a shit about that. I'd rather continue to have snus.

Implementation of HR 1256 “Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act” (the FDA legislation) will be complex. Regardless of timelines written in black letter law, as a practical matter my best guess, which is a lot more than a simple layman's assessment but still only a guess, is that it will actually take about six months to a year after it becomes law for it to bite, since they will be creating a large brand new federal agency within an agency for the purpose of raping us. But it could take longer, or it could take less. There will still be a very slim chance that HR 1256 could be administered in an unexpectedly favorable way, possibly based on evidence and arguments from tobacco “harm reduction” advocates, contrary to the wishes of the bill's authors. But that is not likely.

PACT is not as complex as HR 1256, but it still will take time to set up the implementation and administration. That is in spite of the fact that the legislation says 90 days after it becomes law, which would mean the 90 days would make it technically effective sometime this coming Fall if it remains where it is as expected on the Senate's legislative calendar for final passage.

[Snusdogg]

I was a dipper (skoal, grizzly, etc...) for 22 years prior to switching to snus a couple of years ago. Let me get this straight. All smokeless tobacco products will be banned under this new legislation or just not available via internet and mail/UPS/Fed-Ex??? What about flavored smokeless tobacco? I thought that if it was in existance prior to February 2007 it could not be touched. Lots of questions about all this B.S. but so few answers. Hopefully somebody can chime in and add a few details about what might still be able to be enjoyed by us Americans before everything dissappears. Thanks in advance.

[DaveInPA]

So here's my question. How long will snus last in the freezer? Once someone can tell me that, I will order that amount of time's worth of snus and put it in the freezer so that I have my snus after this passes, which, I'm pretty damn sure it will.

After that stash is gone, my ass will move to Sweden.

[Mohave]

I was a dipper (skoal, grizzly, etc...) for 22 years prior to switching to snus a couple of years ago. Let me get this straight. All smokeless tobacco products will be banned under this new legislation or just not available via internet and mail/UPS/Fed-Ex??? What about flavored smokeless tobacco? I thought that if it was in existance prior to February 2007 it could not be touched. Lots of questions about all this B.S. but so few answers. Hopefully somebody can chime in and add a few details about what might still be able to be enjoyed by us Americans before everything dissappears. Thanks in advance.

No, the pending legislation does not "ban all smokeless products." And the flavor issue can be confusing because there are specific things in one piece of legislation related only to cigarettes' flavors, but there is also broad new authority to order change in all ingredients of all forms of tobacco with the widely understood intent of reducing tobacco use and promoting what the FDA determines to be in the interest of "public health."

Under PACT specifically, tobacco is just not supposed to be available via internet ordering & delivery through mail or "common carrier." PACT doesn't ban any particular product, but bans that method of purchase and delivery of tobacco. Of course that is a big deal to us here, because most of us get most of our stuff that way. But not all.

In addition, there is also other legislation about to become law which is more far reaching, not specific to internet purchase or any particular delivery methods, giving the FDA authority to control and regulate the ingredients of tobacco products, freezing the marketing and sale of any "new" products not already in widespread national use before Feb. 2007, and a variety of other measures of control of tobacco products intended to result in reducing the use of tobacco.

But neither bill specifically bans all smokeless products, or any whole category of products like that. Under that FDA control legislation (but not PACT) products which were not on the domestic US market prior to the cutoff date are unlikely to be approved for sale in the US, but products meeting the 2007 cutoff date can continue, while becoming subject to FDA control over ingredients, with the limitation that the FDA is not allowed to reduce the nicotine level of tobacco all the way down to zero, and menthol has a specific exemption from one specific part of the ingredient (cigarette flavor) control authority granted to the agency. In another thread someone provided a link demonstrating that some Swedish Match snus were apparently on the US market just in time to meet the cutoff date for this legislation, so if the information in that link is accurate then those snus are likely to be safe at least for brick and mortar retail purchase for the time being even with both bills becoming law.

But most snus (including Camel, along with some other non-snus products) don't meet the cutoff date, which was included in the bill for that very purpose. Most "dip" products and other "snuff" products do. Apparently a few Swedish snus products may also, according to information from Swedish Match in that link supplied by a member of this forum. I am personally happy that this will be a great disappointment to the extreme prohibitionist anti-tobacco people pushing these bills, because they have a particular hard-on for snus, railing against them on the theory that they are supposedly easy for kids to use because they are discrete and spitless. Its bullspit, but its what they say in their campaign for the law, and I heard it repeated on the floor of the US Senate again on Tuesday.

The PACT legislation is relatively straightforward in that it deals only with stopping what its proponents refer to as "internet trafficking" and insuring collection of all taxes, but does not really address what kinds of products are allowed, only how and where they are sold and delivered and taxed. The other FDA legislation involves far reaching control of what products are allowed and broad discretion over ordering changes in what they will contain, and that will take longer to play out.

I don't know if that helped make it more clear, or just kept you confused with more words going around in circles. But it is probably not easy to get if you haven't been following it carefully throughout the whole tortured history.

Snus will not disappear tomorrow, or next week. In the future some snus will most likely become harder to get in the ways we've become used to, and many particular brands of snus and other products declared "new" will probably not be allowed, then later on eventually other product changes are likely to be ordered by the Food and Drug Administration with the goal of reducing use of all tobacco. But it will take time, and won't involve everything we use all disappearing real quick.

[Snusdogg]

Thanks for the clarification. I've definately been following this but not as indepth as others who understand all the legal bullshit better than I do. I would love to be able to snuson like the rest of us but knowing that other smokeless alternatives will still be available takes some of the sting out of all this ridiculous nonsense. If the government was really concerned about the well being of it's citizens it would ban the production/sale of cigarettes and be importing snus by the boatloads! I'd be more than willing to pay the taxes just to be able to enjoy what I like.

[snupy]

there is also broad new authority to order change in all ingredients of all forms of tobacco with the widely understood intent of reducing tobacco use and promoting what the FDA determines to be in the interest of "public health."

If the FDA gave a serious damn about public health, they would issue policies to sway smokers towards snus and other forms of low TSNA smokeless tobacco, given the extensive health studies that prove the safety of snus and other forms of low TSNA smokeless tobacco. However, does the government really want to see fewer smokers, given the gold mine they have on cigarette taxes? I think not.

Under PACT specifically, tobacco is just not supposed to be available via internet ordering & delivery through mail or "common carrier."

Given Phillip Morris is behind this bill, how wonderful it will be for their profits to insure their market share by means of the government. This is no different than Disney extending copyright law for another 20 years, precisely one year before Mickey Mouse would have fallen out of copyright. Yes Virginia, government does indeed exist to insure the profits of well-monied interests.

PACT doesn't ban any particular product, but bans that method of purchase and delivery of tobacco.

That would leave me in the position of purchasing snus locally. This is useless for two reasons:

1. There is no decent snus to be purchased locally in this area.

2. The tobacco prices at local vendors are outrageously high, so even if snus was available locally, it would be a ripoff prices, compared to the price of ordering from overseas.

In addition, there is also other legislation about to become law which is more far reaching, not specific to internet purchase or any particular delivery methods, giving the FDA authority to control and regulate the ingredients of tobacco products, freezing the marketing of any "new" products not already in widespread national use before Feb. 2007, and a variety of other measures of control of tobacco products intended to result in reducing the use of tobacco.

The intention is to protect Phillip Morris market share, which is why that company had such a huge hand in the writing of this bill. Additionally, there is no reason for the government to reduce tobacco usage, outside of cigarettes, due to the well documented health issues that come with smoking tobacco.

But neither bill bans all smokeless products, or any whole category of products like that.

It may as well be a ban, given the situation it will leave me in if my only option is local purchases.

In another thread someone provided a link demonstrating that some Swedish Match snus were apparently on the US market just in time to meet the cutoff date for this legislation, so if the information in that link is accurate then those snus are likely to be safe at least for brick and mortar retail purchase for the time being even with both bills becoming law.

Translation: Screw you if you enjoy snus made by a company other than Swedish Match. Screw you if there are no local retailers that sell Swedish Match products.

Most snus, including Camel, along with a host of other products, can't meet the cutoff date.

Which is precisely why Phillip Morris LOVES this bill and RJReynolds HATES this bill. The government is deciding which tobacco companies shall profit and which shall not.

I am personally happy that this will be a great disappointment to the extreme prohibitionist anti-tobacco people pushing these bills, because they have a particular hard-on for snus, railing against them on the theory that they are supposedly easy for kids to use because they are discrete and spitless.

The bill would sadden me greatly if I lacked a means to keep the government AND Big Tobacco completely out of my tobacco usage.

The PACT legislation is relatively straightforward in that it deals only with stopping what its proponents refer to as "internet trafficking" and insuring collection of all taxes, but does not really address what kinds of products are allowed, only how and where they are sold and delivered and taxed.

Translation: State governments have jacked tobacco taxes so high, that black markets have been created to escape the taxes, as classic economic theory clearly demonstrates would be the case. What is the solution to this problem? More government intervention and legislation, to prevent the public from paying reasonable prices for tobacco. This is prohibition via price/taxes. Prohibition doesn't work, no matter how greedy the states are for more taxes.

In the future some snus will most likely become harder to get in the ways we've become used to, and many particular brands of snus and other products declared "new" will probably not be allowed, then later on eventually other product changes are likely to be ordered by the Food and Drug Administration with the goal of reducing use of all tobacco. But it will take time, and won't involve everything we use all disappearing real quick.

In the future, I will be growing my own tobacco and making my own snus. At that point, it will not matter what insanity government or Big Tobacco come up with next, since they both will be left completely out of my tobacco loop. Additionally, their stupidity and market share games will not be rewarded with my tax money.