Getting saddened by the "Nic race"

[superdevil]

The FDA wouldn't be able to limit the nicotine that is in Swedish manufactured snus that is bought from a company overseas and imported here, though. What I see very realistically happening is the Feds taking notice of our little hobby and coming down hard on what we purchase from Sweden. This is what happens when we elect "anti-tobacco" politicians- it isn't about cigarettes, it's about tobacco, including snus. If you give them an inch, they'll take a mile.

Sagedil, and the other members in Raleigh, do you know that the anti-smoking ban that is perilously close to passing also includes a provision for smokeless tobacco, as well? Snusing at work may well soon become a misdemeanor. Time to speak up.

[sagedil]

I know it is a stupid, insane law. I actually worked briefly for a large company and quickly got in trouble with the big boss who said that using oral tobacco was not allowed at work. I asked him about nicotine gum and somehow, that wasn't a problem.

I still did, and still will regardless. Joy of portions, no one ever has to know. The main hospital in Johnson County has also banned all tobacco, including oral tobacco.

But honestly, I still don't expect this bill to pass. there are still enough enemies of this sort of thing to put the outcome in doubt

[TropicalBob]

From I've seen of the FDA actions and what I've read of the bill, all that would be required is to place a nicotine limit on snus products imported to or sold in America. Sweden can make 40mg snus -- but cannot export it to the U.S. unless the FDA says it's okay.

Heck, Swedish makers can't sell ANY snus in the EU. You bet, snus can be regulated this way.

Smokeless products are all harm reduction products, and until that harm reduction philosophy is accepted as valid, and better than the alternative, we're in trouble.

The FDA can't regulate what Sweden does with snus. But if the FDA controls tobacco, it can regulate what can be brought into the country and sold in the States. Also be on the lookout for proposals that would shut down shipments of any tobacco product to residential addresses.

[Daidone]

More variety is never a bad thing with snus, IMO. Sterks aren't my thing(except for lös mini stealth prises), but if someone wants the extra kick, more power to them, I just hope Thunder comes out with normal strength Frost portions .

Only down side is giving the anti-tobacco zealots more ammo, but they'd make more up if we didn't give it to them anyway.

[mercvrivs]

There comes a point when the government needs to back the **** off. We saw how prohibition didn't work.

[oouder]

All the new extra sterks are for guys like me who are trying to stay away from cigs. Since picking up snus I have gone from about a pack a day to under 5. I mostly use General ONYX and Skruf Stark but do take extra sterk from time to time if I really want to stay away from the ciggy but feel the need for a lot of nic. I do use regular portions but not as frequently as I do the stronger stuff. I am assuming that I will eventually back away from the stronger stuff and go to regular portions if I ever quit smoking.

I sure hope our government never limits the nic content on snus being imported. That would suck.

[velinn]

There comes a point when the government needs to back the **** off. We saw how prohibition didn't work.

And quite honestly we see how it STILL doesn't work with literally billions of dollars being spent while any college kid can go a few doors down and score a bag of weed. Governments don't care. Ending all of this substance regulation is common sense, but governments rarely operate that way.

That said, I frickin love Thunder. Honestly I don't really find much of a difference in the nic from that of a Skruf stark, even though it's several milligrams higher. And the taste is phenomenal.. What Camel Frost should have been, imo.

So really I don't have a problem with innovation in snus. I like a nice kick every now and then. Do I chain Thunders? No, as much as I'd like to because of the flavor I limit it to about twice a day. For the rest of the day, usually a standard 8mg Grov. I think it's really just about personal choice and who likes what.

Just because 151 exists doesn't mean I'm going to drink it every night. 80 proof does me just fine, but for those jello shots gimmie the 151.

[MN_Snuser]

All tobacco/nicotine users require varying amount of nicotine to get satisfaction. I have no problem with the new starks. That said, I find that the 8mg does fine as an all day snus. I use the 11mg varieties if I want a little more. That as high as I go.

[RobsanX]

All tobacco/nicotine users require varying amount of nicotine to get satisfaction. I have no problem with the new starks. That said, I find that the 8mg does fine as an all day snus. I use the 11mg varieties if I want a little more. That as high as I go.

I'd tend to agree with you, but some of the extra strong brands like General and Thunder taste damn good!

[jackolantern]

Not quite

Only 10-20 % of the nicotine present in a pinch of snus is absorbed via the mucous membrane and reaches the systemic circulation. This means that only 1-2 mg of nicotine is absorbed into the blood from a one gram pinch containing ca 10 mg of nicotine.

So 16 mg nicotine in Thunder is what, about 1.6 - 2+ mg absorbed

For more, go here

http://www.swedishmatch.com/en/Snus-...cotine-uptake/

I don't see how that is all that you get, because when I smoked (as of last December), I would chain smoke 3 or 4 cigs no problem, but leaving a 16mg portion in for 10 minutes would give me the jitters and make me feel like crap. I had to be getting more than 1.6 - 2mg of nicotine.

EDIT:

look, nicotine is not like heroin in many fairly significant ways, even though that's what most of us have been told.

tolerance doesn't just build forever with nicotine, that's why people don't just smoke "more and more" cigarettes. Some people stay with less than a pack, some 3-4 packs a day, but they're not quickly smoking 100 cigs a day and still being unsatisfied. Eventually, they reach a point where the body gets it in "adequate" amounts before it dissipates.

We all lovingly call it vitamin N, but that is also a misnomer for more than the obvious reasons. All nicotine users, allowed to indulge at their own pace, increase their nicotine levels over the course of a day. They don't just maintain a constant level, they ramp it up.(consider how long it takes for snus-absorbed nicotine to leave the body).

Just remain realistic. You will absolutely never see the day when we're all snusing 12 portions of 25mg snus because our tolerance is so high. Our bodies simply don't want to do that, and nicotine users(many here on the board) are remarkably good at not ODing on nicotine.

What you described and said nicotine isn't is actually an open-ceiling tolerance. Benzodiazepines are open-ceiling tolerance drugs. The amount you need to take for the same effect as yesterday is close to double today. Nicotine luckily is nothing like that (as you said), or people would need to be smoking 100 cigs a day after a year or so of smoking.

Nicotine is actually like Heroin in that they are both glass-ceiling tolerance drugs. Tolerance builds rapidly in the beginning until you level out at a point that always satisfies you. However, a person's tolerance can be pushed higher if they continuously use as much as their body will handle. After a while of that, then the old amount will no longer be enough. Tolerance can keep going higher, but only if pushed.

[velinn]

I guess the significant difference in nicotine and heroin, then, is the motivation for use. While heroin has a maintainence level as far as being satisfied (ie, not going into withdrawal) the motivation of using heroin is to be high, not just stave off cravings. This is why heroin users OD; they keep doing more to get the "high" effect and end up doing more than their body can handle at once.


Nicotine use is very different. While most of us like the nic rush, that isn't really the motive.. we all want to stave off nicotine fits, but we're not in it for a high. The "relaxed" feeling from nicotine is the sating of the brains desire for more of the chemical, not a high per se, at least, not in the same way as heroin. What we all want from nicotine is a maintence level that works for us, while enjoying the properties of the product we're using (flavor, etc), rather than enjoying a high from the chemical itself.

In this way, heroin and nicotine are as much alike as they are different. XD

[Roo]

I just received a shipment at the office today. I am not the least bit "saddened" by my first portion of Thunder Frosted. Looks like I will become a convert after all (did not care for original portions). Also got some Thunder Los, and some Odens Sterk Los. What's the verdict on the latter?

[sydb]

Heck, Swedish makers can't sell ANY snus in the EU. You bet, snus can be regulated this way.

Sorry to revive an old thread. You're right that it's not generally legal to sell snus in the EU. But posession is not illegal and there must be at least tens of thousands of cans of snus imported into EU countries each year, quite legally, as the sale takes place in Sweden.

Tobacco is not yet a controlled substance and although I can imagine it becoming a controlled substance given the nanny-state fascism that governments the world over have been ramping up, like snus user's nicotine levels, for several decades, I find it hard to imagine it taking place in the forseeable future.

I just wanted to point out that oral tobacco has not (yet) been regulated out of existence in the EU. Also there is an occasional debate about legalising the sale of snus for it's health advantages over other tobacco products. Finally smokeless tobacco in general is a very, very niche thing, in the UK at least, so I would have to say it's well below the government's radar.

I hope.

[gubasmark]

Hey Sage

Not quite

Only 10-20 % of the nicotine present in a pinch of snus is absorbed via the mucous membrane and reaches the systemic circulation. This means that only 1-2 mg of nicotine is absorbed into the blood from a one gram pinch containing ca 10 mg of nicotine.

So 16 mg nicotine in Thunder is what, about 1.6 - 2+ mg absorbed

For more, go here

http://www.swedishmatch.com/en/Snus-...cotine-uptake/

Hey Sage, interesting document indeed. All though I assume it to be pretty accurate I wonder if there are a few variables not taken into account in this study and I would like your thoughts on it.

though nicotine is metabolized by our bodies in the same way, each person metabolizes at either a slower or faster rate, some more efficiently than others I would assume. I wonder if general health, weight and even possibly genetics don't come into play here being that some people are more susceptible to dependence to it. What do you think?

Also, while it says that consumption patterns were analyzed, to what extent I wonder? I know that I find myself pulling on my snus or putting it in the bottom to get more juice from it as we discussed yesterday or sometimes even pushing it a little thus salivating more thus I would imagine absorbing a bit more. Now from what I understand, this is not common practice among most but correct me if I'm wrong. I went from over a pack a day for fifteen years to none since I've made the switch to snus but in order to maximize nicotine absorption and delivery I have made it common practice to do these things especially after having one in after the first fifteen minutes or so. I wonder if this type of consumption pattern was also taken into effect here? I'd love to hear your thoughts on this as well.

Also, while the study says "four different portion-packed snus products of various weight and format, different nicotine content and different pH values" there are many higher nicotine brands, i.e. Thunder, General ES etc. Now I would imagine that the absorption rate would be relative but being that "Nicotine is metabolized in the liver by cytochrome P450 enzymes (mostly CYP2A6, and also by CYP2B6). A major metabolite is cotinine. Other primary metabolites include nicotine N'-oxide, nornicotine, nicotine isomethonium ion, 2-hydroxynicotine and nicotine glucuronide." i would imagine that anything else in the body that interferes with any of these major metabolites would indeed inhibit metabolizing nicotine and thus result in much higher concentrations of it in the blood stream. I am no doctor but I gather that this may be telling in why some are content with the lower nicotine brands and some require the higher as I do. I also wonder if this doesn't play directly into the dependence of it. I think it can be looked at from more than a few angles. At any rate, the study says that "The uptake rate can be estimated by monitoring the increase of the blood nicotine concentration over time through different body fluids, i.e. blood, saliva and urine. I'm wonder what variances there were among study participants in regards to health, genetics, medications that would also inhibit these enzymes, etc.

My, theory and (once again, I'm no doctor or scientist) is that this particular study doesn't address all brands but only 4. Being that each brand has different moisture, ph, weight, etc as the study says, to me that would mean each particular brand would need to be specifically analyzed and that similar conclusions cannot be factually said definitively in a broad sense in regard to ALL "Swedish Snus" or any other product containing nicotine precisely because of these crucial factors.

Lastly, I thought this to be interesting, although doesn't have much merit to this discussion. The medical literature states "A single amino-acid difference between brain and muscle acetylcholine receptors explains why nicotine activates the CNS but does not activate skeletal muscles and cause instant death. Nicotine addiction is therefore a biological fluke."

It seems to me that were dealing with one very complex substance. But in the end, all I know is that I ENJOY it and it helps me get through the day! Take care

[YamzaYomzaYouza]

As I understand it, nicotine is very different from other well-known addictive substances (alcohol, heroin, cocaine), in that sustained use actually leads to deeper highs. I guess it's somewhat similar to marijuana in that regard. In the case of nicotine, your brain produces more "nicotine receptors", which is why even long-time nicotine addicts still feel that morning rush (and possibly feel it even more strongly than they did early on in their history).

This, combined with what velinn says above (that nicotine addiction is more about avoiding the craving, rather than getting the buzz), leads me to believe (perhaps ignorantly - and if so, mea culpa) that the "nicotine race" isn't worth getting too hung up over. Even in a worst-case nightmare prohibition scenario, the substance itself is out of your body in less than a week - so after a couple days, the grizzled three-Nick and Johnnys at a time five times a day veteran will largely be in the same boat as the casual Ooomph!er - craving the needle, but not so much the drug itself.