What does it mean for something to be alive?

[AtreyuKun]

Ok. This thread might turn out to be a monster or a flame war or a monstrous flame war. But last night, my wife and I watched "The Lovely Bones". I've already read the book which went far more into the afterlife than the movie did. But it got me wondering about life, and death. Also sgreger's sig triggered this thread.

Earlier today, I was watching a bug on my truck. He/She was doing what bugs do; walking around, looking creepy, sticking his legs in the air, all that stuff. I suppressed the urge to kill it. I just watched him. As I watched, my mind began to wander. What is that spark that separates a living thing from a non-living thing? I've already stated that I have no faith in any sort of god or higher being, so I don't think it's necessarily what we would call a spirit or soul. Incidentally, I don't even really think the idea of a god and soul have anything to do with each other anyway.

We are essentially all beings of energy. At the smallest level, we are nothing but energy. What does that make us? What happens when we are conceived? What happens when we die? What happens to our consciousness? What happens to that bug when I kill him? (Aside from the obvious of course)

I don't know. Just one of those thoughts that humans think I suppose.

[tom502]

There are different levels of life, relating to the elements, earth, water, fire, air, and ether, I think. From the smallest simplest beings to the more advanced, they are forms for which the spirit/consciousness can reside in, in it's own spiritual evolution. This is not restricted to this planet either. When one dies, be it a human, or beetle, it's developed consciousness and causes it has made, continues on to another form, continuing it's spiritual development, coming from before the current "life", and onward.

[Premium Parrots]

it means you can be happy that you woke up this morning and you can even be alot happier that when reading the obituaries......that you name doesn't show up.





works for me

[timholian]

Energy can neither be created or destroyed.

To me your "soul" is the "spark" that keeps us living. Our bodies are amazing power plants using nothing more than all the vitamins, minerals and water to run it. As to what happens to the "spark" afterward, I haven't a clue.

[tom502]

Since it's energy, it can't be destroyed. It can only be rearranged. And the law of cause and effect. It only makes sense for reincarnation, as this coincides with known science.

[snusjus]

In my opinion, life ends when the brain ceases to function.

[sgreger1]

Ok. This thread might turn out to be a monster or a flame war or a monstrous flame war. But last night, my wife and I watched "The Lovely Bones". I've already read the book which went far more into the afterlife than the movie did. But it got me wondering about life, and death. Also sgreger's sig triggered this thread.

Earlier today, I was watching a bug on my truck. He/She was doing what bugs do; walking around, looking creepy, sticking his legs in the air, all that stuff. I suppressed the urge to kill it. I just watched him. As I watched, my mind began to wander. What is that spark that separates a living thing from a non-living thing? I've already stated that I have no faith in any sort of god or higher being, so I don't think it's necessarily what we would call a spirit or soul. Incidentally, I don't even really think the idea of a god and soul have anything to do with each other anyway.

We are essentially all beings of energy. At the smallest level, we are nothing but energy. What does that make us? What happens when we are conceived? What happens when we die? What happens to our consciousness? What happens to that bug when I kill him? (Aside from the obvious of course)

I don't know. Just one of those thoughts that humans think I suppose.

The answer from a non religious/no god perspective:


Your right, we are all energy. What makes the diff between life and ananoment objects? The short of it is: How that energy is aranged. In a living object, the energy/mass is arranged in a way that creates a computer (brain) of some type, varying in size from plants, to animals, to humans. The computer in most cases (for most animals) is assembled via evolution to be just powerfull enough to handle keeping it's host alive, it will make them hungry, thirsty, horney etc.

The human brain for some odd reason has adapted way beyond that; It's like artificial intelligence, animals/plants are basically robots, the AI in them just accomplishes whatever task will keep them alive and reproduce, but humans at one point became self aware, kind of like the AI in terminator. Once a computer (brain) is self aware, it goes into super evolution mode where it goes over and above accomplishing basic survival and instead focuses on total domination. So humans, instead of just hunting for food, eating and having sex, have created something much larger. We literally are on a mission to bitch slap nature in her face and defy all the normal processes and cycles, we want to live forever, be lazy, and travel the universe and watch porn on our ipads.



So esentially, we are all energy and the difference between life and lifeless objects is that in a living creature, the energy/mass has assembled itself in a meaningfull way. Once the vessel is dead, nature recaptures and recycles that energy into the next closest thing (i.e. when an animal dies, the first animal to come across it will eat it will recieve that energy. If your body is burned, it will turn into carbon which will then be soaked up by various other processes and ultimately be eaten by algea etc etc)

[WickedKitchen]

Wow, I could sit here and type for hours about this one...

For years I thought that it was just blamo. Out. Like switching off the power on the computer. Gone. Nothing. I wanted to be ultimately fed to pigs or something or otherwise composted and put back into the earth. The thought being my energy (that which was left) would then be incorporated into the fabric of life as we know it faster than if I were buried in the traditional Roman Catholic way (odd...let's collect all the dead people and put them on one side of town). It was by best chance of not just sitting in a box and I'd prolly make good fertilizer 'cos I'm so full of #$^&.

Now, I'm not so sure about the electrical plug thing and I believe that there might be something more. After all, it's certainly nicer to think that we endure in some way shape or form. I'm still not religious but I am more spiritual in nature. I think what makes us humans different is that we are able to come up with ideas. Things that we have never seen we are able to think up and express. Through communication we have excelled on knowledge built upon itself.

Life has been created out of GM bacteria where the cell's nucleus has been replaced by a synthetic one. Eventually a new species will come to be. I think all life has to consume something though. It consumes, and in most cases if not all there is some sort of waste or bi-product. For life there must exist a cell that changes. It uses energy from one source and produces that energy in another form be it movement, growth, spawn, etc. Life reproduces copies of itself...and sometimes they change a little (there's the evolution thing again).

We humans, I believe, are different. Perhaps our brain development is a flaw. Maybe we've evolved to a dead end and there is no real use for our intelligence other than the demise of ourselves. I am drifting further and further from this belief and towards one of some sort of continuance. What I want to continue is my thoughts. My self-awareness. If my mental library of self could be transferred into a sim program I think that I might be content enduring that way until there is a way to put that knowledge back into another body (any kind of body for that matter) After all, if the ability to think, express ourselves, interact with our environments, and decide on things is intact then everything else might as well be relative. The self-awareness thing is what's got me. We don't quite know where thoughts come from yet...other than experience and electrical impulses.

Is it the same for a bug? Well, they are aware. When my rolled up newspaper is swinging towards a fly it knows that it had better get the heck out of the way. Maybe it doesn't compute in that fashion, but it doesn't have to. It knows to move due to impending doom. To me when the fly is squished it is rendered to proteins that will be consumed by something else or be either interred to the earth to eventually feed something else, and/or gasses might be released that would mix with the atmosphere. To the fly, I suspect it's different. The fly no longer moves or metabilizes anything because the mechanism is broken but the energy remains. That energy must go somewhere. Other more complex animals lament the death of one of their own. This has been documented. If only we could know what they are "thinking". Even still, the proteins in the corpse will not just disappear. They will be converted into something else. Heck, even dinosaurs turn to oil and are used today. Their energy (to some degree) is evident on the surface of the planet again...but they're not alive again.

I think, for a human, to be alive is to be aware. To have the ability to think and conger thoughts. If were are brain-dead and in a coma then we are still alive because we use the energy that is given to us and demand more or the mechanism with stop. In that case the brain no longer functions to the subject doesn't know he's alive. No thought, no response to stimulus, no interaction...we think they're dead and without human intervention the subject would not be able to sustain itself. Where do their thoughts go? If you believe that they go somewhere then they must have been placed inside our bodies. I don't think that's the case but what do I know. I guess that theory doesn't work if the "soul" (for lack of a better term) can leave the body at times other than death. Maybe it can.

Ahhh, this is pot-talk at it's finest. I'm sober as a judge now and I've got to go back out to work. Looking forward to reading more later.

[sgreger1]

Since it's energy, it can't be destroyed. It can only be rearranged. And the law of cause and effect. It only makes sense for reincarnation, as this coincides with known science.

No, you are misinterpreting the processes at work here and re-incarnation is scientifically impossible. No energy is created or destroyed, it just changes forms, if I burn a log, it turns into carbon and spreads to the winds, that does not mean it will reassemble itself as a log somewhere else. Same goes for humans, if you die in a field, all of the hyenas and vultures and ants will eat you, and the atmosphere will slowly oxidize and destroy the rest of the remaining tissue/bones etc, at which point it will then be eaten by worms and turned into soil. Your energy will be redistributed amongst many different sources but it will never turn you into another human.


For reincarnation to be possible, when you 100% your energy would have to be redistributed directly into a mothers belly, and even if that impossible secnario played out, you would be the same energy but not retain any of your traits from your previouse life.

So reincarnation cannot be explained by science.

[truthwolf1]

I really hope we can keep our consciousness after lights out. The fact that there is no obvious contact with the next world would seem that we might go blank and our energy used for the next life. Reincarnated Pilot boy
http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/Tech...=894217&page=1

Near death experiences though do hint at a afterworld.

[tom502]

I disagree. It may not be easy to explain every detail, but it makes more sense, than, "oh it's God's will", or "it just happens with no meaning". The law of cause and effect and inter-connectedness of everything explains how we are all different, in our different bodies, our different lives, it's a continuation of the karma we had from before this life, which, in it's eternal continuation, "creates" one's current life, which continues after this "life". If this were not so, we'd all be identical, because we'd have no past karma, and it would be "magic" that we'd just appear, all the same. And causes one makes, do not just magically disappear, if you went to a roof of a building, and dropped a brick, and at that very instance, shot yourself dead, the brick that you dropped would not magically disappear. Even if the body "dies", the causes one makes in life, must continue, which creates another body for your eternally evolving spiritual consciousness to further is continual evolution. Also "mind" is not the brain. The mind exists apart from the brain. So, we have, eternal energy, inter-connectedness of all, cause/effect, action/reaction, mind/consciousness. It just makes most logical sense that we reincarnation, or transmigrate, whichever term one prefers, it's a continuation of existence beyond the death of this body, as well as before the current body/vehicle.

[sgreger1]

To throw in the other side, the "maybe there is something else side", I will note that the following things point towards something else:

Ghosts: I know, probably don't believe in them but people throughout time have sworn that they exist. Maybe they do, and maybe this means something or confirms something happening after death.

Near death experiences and out of body experiences: These seem to be real and many people report them, that they see their bodies as though they were standing over them during periods of near death. For example you have a heart attack and are clinically dead for a short time, people report existing outside of their body and then once revived they wake up back in their body.

Drugs: Anyone who has sufficiently shroomed or been on acid should be pretty convinced that the universe is deeper than we collectively perceive it. Many people also have out of body experiences while on hallucinogens.



So it is possible, maybe there is something. It's too soon to tell, science is very young and is still answering the most basic of questions like how does gravity work. We arent anywhere near the point where we can even begin thinking about afterlife.



@TOM: No, i'm sorry that viewpoint may be valid but it is absolutely contrary to how science sees things. The energy is transferred around, yes, but energy is just energy, there is nothing attached to it (like thoughts or feelings) because that would require a brain or something other than just energy. Even if your theory were true, for my energy to leave my body upon dead, be eaten by animals and worms, them die and be eaten etc etc etc would take that process happening a trillion times before the energy was ever used again in a human. Then think of if you body is cremated, it turns into gasses and dust and some of those gasses or elements of you will seep out into space through our ozone home, do you know what the odds are of that energy being redistributed back to earth and into a woman’s belly?

I mean it is possible and I share a similar view of how I suspect the world works but do not call it science, because science it is not.

[AtreyuKun]

So basically, René Descartes was right? Our self awareness makes at least us humans distinct? I wonder if that distinctness matters after the party is over? Is it enough to will ourselves into existence after our containers break? I don't know the answers to these questions. One thing I do know is that I will find out for sure one day. Or I won't.
Yeah Wicked, this is total pot talk and I'm sober too. I've only had that choco-kahlua combo so far.

[sgreger1]

In red are all the things that are unscientific in this view:

I disagree. It may not be easy to explain every detail, but it makes more sense, than, "oh it's God's will", or "it just happens with no meaning". The law of cause and effect and inter-connectedness of everything explains how we are all different, in our different bodies, our different lives, it's a continuation of the karma we had from before this life, which, in it's eternal continuation, "creates" one's current life, which continues after this "life". If this were not so, we'd all be identical, because we'd have no past karma, and it would be "magic" that we'd just appear, all the same. And causes one makes, do not just magically disappear, if you went to a roof of a building, and dropped a brick, and at that very instance, shot yourself dead, the brick that you dropped would not magically disappear. Even if the body "dies", the causes one makes in life, must continue, which creates another body for your eternally evolving spiritual consciousness to further is continual evolution. Also "mind" is not the brain. The mind exists apart from the brain. So, we have, eternal energy, inter-connectedness of all, cause/effect, action/reaction, mind/consciousness. It just makes most logical sense that we reincarnation, or transmigrate, whichever term one prefers, it's a continuation of existence beyond the death of this body, as well as before the current body/vehicle.

The law of inter-connectedness: No such law exists in science.


karma: No such concept one might call Karma has ever been observed in a scientific capacity, and science does not recognise it's existence, hence karma is not scientific. For karma to exist all other known scientific laws would have to be broken


eternal continuation, "creates" one's current life, which continues after this "life": The only thing that continues from one "life" to the next is energy. The number of electrons transfers over but no personal traits or anything else we associate with life transfer anywhere.


If this were not so, we'd all be identical: No, us not being identical can be easily explained by noting environmental pressures, social pressures, and different personal experience. I am a libertarian because of my life experience, I was not always so but my life has made me be of this libertarian mindset. This does not mean in the past I was a libertarian reincarnated, it just means that life has formed how I act and who I am.


Also "mind" is not the brain. The mind exists apart from the brain: Mind is the brain. The brain is like a computer, the cpu is the hardware that allows for software to run, the software may take info from multiple outside sources and come to a conclusion about what stocks to invest in. This is the same as the mind. The brain is the cpu, the sensory input from light, sound, touch etc allows the software (our "mind) to take all that outside information and decide what stock to choose. I see mountains, breath the air, hear the birds, therefore my software takes this all together and stitches it into what I would refer to as reality, this reality will be based on many factors and will change over time as I develope and input more info from my sensory hardware.
Therefore, the siftware (my mind) could not exist in any meaninfull capacity without the hardware (brain). So the mind is a part of the brain. Without the brain, my mind would be worth no more than a computer program with no CPU to run it.
The mind is just the brain working, it's like if a robot became self aware, it doesn't mean he has a soul, it just means that he can hear his computer brain cherping about as it crunches numbers and now has the free will to interpret that incoming information as it pleases, hence "free will" and self awareness.

inter-connectedness of all: The only interconnectedness of all recognized by science is something completely different from the one you are referencing. Science does not agree that we as humans are all interconnected in any way other than through genetics or our direct itneraction with one another.

It just makes most logical sense that we reincarnation: No, reincarnation is actually a complex way of describing a simple thing. The most logical answer tends to be the simplest one that sufficiently explains whatever it is you are observing. You are choosing the more complex answer (reincarnation) that has lots of loops and other complexities, whereas a much simpler explanation already fills in all the blanks and describes what it is we are observing.

[Premium Parrots]

so many words have been posted on this thread already. what do they all mean?