Who do you think is lying in this obvious info war:

[sgreger1]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/mid...t/10264193.stm

Read this article, does anyone remember how they were saying a nuclear scientist from Iran defected recently with secrets on their program? Well apparently there is a disinfo campaign going on between us and Iran, both sides have a different story, who do you think is lying here? Check out how weird this is:


Shahram Amiri disappeared a year ago while on a pilgrimage to Saudi Arabia.
A video broadcast by Iranian TV purports to show Mr Amiri saying he was kidnapped and is living in Arizona.

Hours later, another video posted on YouTube appeared to show the scientist saying he was happy in America. The US denied abducting him.



So here's how it went:


In the video shown on the Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting network, the man says he was forced to say he defected with a laptop full of evidence about Iran's nuclear secrets and that he was being used to put pressure on Iran.

The video showed a man wearing headphones and talking to his webcam.

He says he was in the Saudi city of Medina as part of a Muslim pilgrimage when Saudi intelligence officers drugged and kidnapped him.
"When I became conscious, I found myself in a plane on the way to the US," he said.
"Since I was abducted and brought to the US I was heavily tortured and pressured by US intelligence."

The man says in the film that the recording was made on 5 April in the city of Tucson, Arizona.

Iranian TV reports said the Iranian security services obtained the film "by special methods" but did not elaborate.



Then, an hour later, he posts another youtube video saying the EXACT opposite:


In the second clip, posted hours later to a YouTube account in the name of Shahramamiri2010, the man says he lives safely in the city and wants to continue his education in the US.

"I am free here and I assure everyone I am safe," he said in Farsi.

"My purpose in today's conversation is to put an end to all the rumours that have been levelled at me over the past year. I am Iranian and I have not taken any steps against my homeland."



Neither video is entirely convincing. The Iranian government version is poor quality, with the possibility that it has been manipulated.

In the YouTube video , the man is looking beyond the camera, apparently reading a not very well written script.








So what is going on here? There are only two possibilities:

1)Iran is lying: He defected and is chilling in America now. But then why would he post a video saying they drugged and tortured him to obtain iranian state secrets?

2) US is lying: He was captured and tortured. But then how did he manage to post a video accusing the US of torturing him? If he was a captive of the US, how the hell does he have a webcam and access to youtube?


But the fact is that there are two videos, both which seem kinda sketch, that both have the same guy claiming two completely different things.

What do you think? Who is lying? I just find it odd that he would say he was being imprisoned and tortured, then somehow get access to youtube, and then be like "No, I am free now and chilling, the US rocks, please stop spreading rumors and forget this ever happend".

[lxskllr]

I think he's really being held in Northerner's warehouse, and Fredrik's taking Iran's nuclear secrets to eliminate the rest of the snus competition.

[sgreger1]

I think he's really being held in Northerner's warehouse, and Fredrik's taking Iran's nuclear secrets to eliminate the rest of the snus competition.

The perfect twist. While the powers that be divert our attention with things like Iran and US torture policy, in the background there is a secret nuclear program to destroy via nuke anyone who voted for PACT. I like it.

[LaZeR]

/George W. Bush

[tom502]

I believe Iran, because the US offered him in exchange for the hikers, they said they would not accept that, because he was kidnapped, and if he was not kidnapped, then how could the US do a prioner swap with him?

[sgreger1]

Hadn't heard of that tom but excelent point!


Just as an aside, anyone who think the US doesn't torture is out of their mind, we did it before Bush and we do it during Obama, do not be so naive for a second to think that it has stopped because we have this fng president. Abu gharib got caught so they moved to gitmo, gitmo got into the media so obama took the heat off by saying he would in a few years maybe possibly shut it down. If you think we only have 1 secret prison at any time you are f*&king nuts. We are conducting war in 75 countries right now, 75 all but two of those countries are mianly wars being fought by covert forces (with a massive budget), and prisoners taken by covert forces need covert detention facilities. You are aware that today we still have our floating prison ships, aircraft carriers in constantly changing locations holding detainees away from the prying eyes of the media? You are aware we still use extraordinary rendition and send prisoners on planes to egypt and the like where we pay their intel services to torture for us so our hands aren't dirty?


Those who think Obama has somehow changed anything is wrong, Obama is more of a war president than bush, if that's possible, he didn't start them because he wasn't a politician then, but he is finishing it (well, growing it not finishing it). I hope to god a day will come where people aren't dissapeared in the middle of the night to some remote detention facility and tortured but I foubt that day will be soon.

I don't care much that terrorists are being tortured, if someone kidnapped my daughter, I would torture them ina way that would make history. I have a problem with it all being done with no oversight or transparency. This means that potentially if the government didn't like me I could find myself in one of these prisons being tortured just because I am a political dissident, that is the problem, that innocents may be being subjected to this. If Osama gets caught and we torture him I wouldn't shed a tear, truly I don't disaprove of torture and I know that's not popular nowadays, I also support the death penalty which is also not popular, but I do disaprove of either of those two being done without oversight, transparency or judge and jury. That kind of power leads to abuse each and every time, without fail.

[PipenSnus]

What do you think? Who is lying?

Everybody.

[sgreger1]

Everybody.

Including you? Wait, what if i'm lying? What if they are all lying, maybe there is no Iran, i've never seen it. I mean they say there is global warming but today was cooler than yesterday, they say we are fighting insurgents, but like Kat Williams, I don't even know no insurgents.

[PipenSnus]

Careful, if you keep up that train of thought, you might become enlightened. Or paranoid schizophrenic. I can never remember which.

[tom502]

I trust Iran more than the USA.

[sgreger1]

Careful, if you keep up that train of thought, you might become enlightened. Or paranoid schizophrenic. I can never remember which.

I mean they say there is a draught here in CA but I am drinking a bottle of water as we speak, they say the economy is tanked but I get paid each and every 15th and 1st of the month. Is the whole world just a giant conspiracy, were we always at war with Eurasia? Have you noticed they have nearly every color of M&M's, I mean they have a black, brown and yellow M&M, but no white ones!

I feel enlightened already! I should go take my meds though before this enlightment starts turning into light headedness. And why do these pink elephants keep staring at me damnit?

[BuLLitz]

Hadn't heard of that tom but excelent point!


Just as an aside, anyone who think the US doesn't torture is out of their mind, we did it before Bush and we do it during Obama, do not be so naive for a second to think that it has stopped because we have this fng president. Abu gharib got caught so they moved to gitmo, gitmo got into the media so obama took the heat off by saying he would in a few years maybe possibly shut it down. If you think we only have 1 secret prison at any time you are f*&king nuts. We are conducting war in 75 countries right now, 75 all but two of those countries are mianly wars being fought by covert forces (with a massive budget), and prisoners taken by covert forces need covert detention facilities. You are aware that today we still have our floating prison ships, aircraft carriers in constantly changing locations holding detainees away from the prying eyes of the media? You are aware we still use extraordinary rendition and send prisoners on planes to egypt and the like where we pay their intel services to torture for us so our hands aren't dirty?


Those who think Obama has somehow changed anything is wrong, Obama is more of a war president than bush, if that's possible, he didn't start them because he wasn't a politician then, but he is finishing it (well, growing it not finishing it). I hope to god a day will come where people aren't dissapeared in the middle of the night to some remote detention facility and tortured but I foubt that day will be soon.

I don't care much that terrorists are being tortured, if someone kidnapped my daughter, I would torture them ina way that would make history. I have a problem with it all being done with no oversight or transparency. This means that potentially if the government didn't like me I could find myself in one of these prisons being tortured just because I am a political dissident, that is the problem, that innocents may be being subjected to this. If Osama gets caught and we torture him I wouldn't shed a tear, truly I don't disaprove of torture and I know that's not popular nowadays, I also support the death penalty which is also not popular, but I do disaprove of either of those two being done without oversight, transparency or judge and jury. That kind of power leads to abuse each and every time, without fail.

You are assuming there isn't oversight. It may be there... and covert too. Why should they tell YOU/US anything. As a matter of fact, I don't want to know and I don't want YOU to know.
Torture away... and if that don't work, maim. Protect us at all costs.
I don't give a rats-ass what other countries think... afterall, most of them are part of the problem due to their own alignments, disengagement, or appeasment.

[shikitohno]

You are assuming there isn't oversight. It may be there... and covert too. Why should they tell YOU/US anything. As a matter of fact, I don't want to know and I don't want YOU to know.
Torture away... and if that don't work, maim. Protect us at all costs.
I don't give a rats-ass what other countries think... afterall, most of them are part of the problem due to their own alignments, disengagement, or appeasment.

Woah, slow down a second. You might say "USA #1!" all day long, but it's important to keep foreign opinion healthy. The US is a great military power, but you're deluding yourself if you think it's invulnerable to attack. If the US pisses off enough foreign countries, we are screwed. Hell, if we just pissed off China and India enough, we could be in trouble if no one felt like helping us out in a war against those two. For a case that emphasises this perfectly, look at Israel now. It doesn't matter which side you fall on with Israel, you have to admit that Israel ignored foreign opinion of their actions for so long that they've begun alienating their allies and steadily pissing off countries who were once neutral. If they don't do something to improve their image abroad, they could soon find themselves in serious trouble. The same can happen to the US. If the US keeps blowing off what other countries and the UN think of its actions, it will eventually be branded a rogue state. It's this sort of "screw what the rest of the world thinks" mentality that has seen Iran and North Korea ostracised in the international community. It's important for a country to stand by what they believe in and not be too swayed by the opinions of others, but compromise is also necessary. The US, in my opinion, needs to realise that the rest of the world has not appointed them the final arbiters of right and wrong, and that the US does make mistakes in judgement just as often as other countries do.

[sgreger1]

You are assuming there isn't oversight. It may be there... and covert too. Why should they tell YOU/US anything. As a matter of fact, I don't want to know and I don't want YOU to know.
Torture away... and if that don't work, maim. Protect us at all costs.
I don't give a rats-ass what other countries think... afterall, most of them are part of the problem due to their own alignments, disengagement, or appeasment.

A valid argument indeed, it's just that it seems oversight is not an integral part of our system we find ourselves in. Like for example congress claims to be unaware of the fact we were using "torture" (I don't think it was torture) in guantanamo, even the house speaker and those who SHOULD be in the know were completely oblivious, according to them (not that I believe them for a second). Therefore it is possible, and I think for the most part we can all agree that we have a significant black budget and multiple black projects that are often times above the heads of most of our leaders, so it's not a far stretch to assume people could get away with this without anyone of any importance knowing.


Like I said, I don't care if they use a drill in the skull of someone they know has information, what I don't approve of is no oversight, or just drilling everyones head that they just so happen to round up in or around a group of insurgents. Next it will be the tea party or someone. One guy will dos something stupid to earn them the rank of domestic terrorists, then all of a sudden we see entire tea party groups being detained and dissapeared for interogation, when most of them were legit. I think that's why we need oversight, at least from congress.

[shikitohno]

I think everyone is lying as well, to a certain extant. Each side has things they would rather not have become public knowledge, and their each going to try and use the other guys dirty deeds to discredit him. Aside from that, this looks like it's about to spill over into a debate on torture. Oversight or no, I can't support it simply because so often the information gathered is unreliable. You torture an innocent guy long enough, most of them will name someone, or spill secrets on some sort of plan. That information tends to be fairly unreliable, though, because the guy's just saying it to get you to let up on him. This leads to time and money wasted trying to track down and prevent things from happening based on false info, aside from the damage done to the guy himself.