Israel stations nuclear missile subs off Iran

[sgreger1]

Most of their neighbours with the capability to follow through on it have offered ceasing such threats if Israel followed through on a treaty. Israel perpetuates its own problems. Saudi Arabia was even talking about recognizing it officially in a round of talks not all that long ago if Israel actually went through, but they didn't.

Israel has agreed to cease fires before, the problem is that Hezbollah or the Palistinians always break the cease fire after less than a few days and start launching rockets again. Not Israels fault. Israel is a small nation surrounded by people that don't like them, because of this they are hyper vigilant. My only problem with Israel is that they talk shit about Iran having nukes and denying UN inspectors, when they themselves have a (not so secret) nuclear program and they also do not allow the UN to inspect. They are able to do with because they are cool witht he US and the US has clout in the UN security council.


Other than that though, it's not fair to just blame israel for everything, are they hyper vigilante? Yes. But even after cease fires the palistinians won't leave them alone. If someone comes along every morning and punches you in the face, after a couple of years you are going to retalliate, and your probably not going to just punch them in the face once. You will probably hit them 10 times, kick them once their down, then stand on their throat untill they almost lose consciouseness so that they get the point for future reference.

Israel gets way too much special treatment, but it doesn't mean they are the root of al evil.

[tom502]

I agree, but also see both sides, to some degree. I think it terrible when the Palestinans blow up civilians, I think they lose cred of their "cause", but then, these people think Israel, as a UN created artificial occupying Zionist state, should not even be there, so, that makes sense that they would try to fight them.

[sgreger1]

This is exactly why I believe my isolationist philosophy would do this country some good. We need to close up our several hundred military bases, withdraw from all these wars, and cut the military down to an impenitrable defense asset, not to be used for offensive purposes. If our defense was on point, 9-11 wouldn't have happened. There is no return on investment for any of the things we spend money on nowadays, like giving condoms to Africa, giving money and arms to Israel, or fighting two wars to bring "stability" to a region that never has and never will be stable.

All of Israel and the rest of the middle east are soverign entities, let them do their thing. As Americans, our job is to protect our intirests, which means WHO THE F*CK CARES WHAT SOME MUSLIMS ACROSS THE PLANET ARE DOING TO EACH OTHER. If it doesn't affect us we should not be putting our damn noses in it. If we focused more on domestic issues rather than expanding our foriegn influence, we would be much richer for it. Quit wasting money on all these random goodwill hunting crap like brining peace to the middle east or handing out food to people in the jungle. Let nature take it's course, worry about our own survival. We are on the brink of destruction in this country, we don't have the resources to be fixing everyones else problems.

[sgreger1]

And for those who think I'm talking out my ass about the torture thing, see here, here, here, and here. Unfortunately, as long as the US sits on the UN Security Council, we're never going to see anything done by the UN to stop them since Israel is the US's darling.

From your wikipedia link:

"prolonged sleep deprivation; prolonged sight deprivation or sensory deprivation; forced, prolonged maintenance of body positions that grow increasingly painful; confinement in tiny, closet-like spaces; exposure to temperature extremes, such as in deliberately overcooled rooms; prolonged toilet and hygiene deprivation; and degrading treatment, such as forcing detainees to eat and use the toilet at the same time"


The shit they call "torture" nowadays is ludicrous. Farmers earlier in the century went through more hardship than these terrorists do in their supposed "torture" sessions:

Prolonged sleep deprivation? Forced, prolonged maintenance of body positions that grow increasingly painfull (like the invisible chair)? Exposure to extreme heat or cold, prolonged toilet and hygiene deprevation? Sounds like EVERY SOLDIER WHOS EVER COMPLETED BASIC TRAINING IN ANY COUNTRY EVER. Not exactly a human rights violation in my mind. ACLU pussies make sure that anyone detained on the battlefield will get 3 hot meals, a back massage and the whole VIP concierge service to go along with their detention.

In this economy it might pay better for me to be a profession POW instead of my current line of work.

[danielan]

The shit they call "torture" nowadays is ludicrous.

LOL, yeah, we're totally screwed if we ever have another WWII style war.

Until now, I never realized how often I have been tortured.

Although, we did like to bitch that the rooms in our barracks were smaller then what prisoners were "entitled" to and we were often 2 to a room.

[bipolarbear1968]

While thankfully my son returned home safely, if something had happened to him, I would have been less than a true Christian if I didn't pray to my God Jesus Christ (not Allah) for the person who did the horrible deed. In fact, I pray for Osama's salvation as well as all Arabs and Israelis as well. I have even started including you in my prayers.


So if that is the type religious fanaticism you are talking about, yes it definitely needs to part of the modern world. In fact, now more than ever before.

Reading this made my day. Thanks for posting this, ProudMarineDad

[danielan]

This is exactly why I believe my isolationist philosophy would do this country some good.

The problem with isolation is that the war starts on your territory. It's better to face your enemy thousands of miles away.

What you suggest sounds, to me, a lot like Clinton's foreign policy. IMO, It didn't work out so well.

[shikitohno]

Sgreger1, you're sort of missing the point on the whole religion side of it. Your religion doesn't govern US decisions. There's that much loathed separation of church and state clause in US law, that forbids the government from taking actions that would promote or lead to one religion becoming official and ruling over others. Basing who we fight wars against and who we consider allies on a book created by a group of illiterate tribesmen thousands of years ago seems like a pretty clear violation of it. You'd be pissed about such things if we had a Muslim president who made all his decisions for the country based on the Qu'ran. Just like I can't force you to believe the Bhagavad Gita is the word of God, you can't force your particular preferred story on me.

As for your response about cease fires, if you kept up to date on the conflict and actively followed it you'd realise why your excuse for them doesn't really work. In most cases where Israel has agreed to a cease fire, it's been leading up to peace talks. The reason Hezbollah and Hamas start launching rockets is because of the ludicrous demands Israel makes. They basically were given the Palestinians' land after WWI, and have the nerve in their peace talks to try and force the Palestinians to live only on the most inhospitable, arid lands in the region. The other big reason Palestinian groups start launching rockets again is because a group called the settlers just keep on taking more and more land, slowly expanding Israel's borders illegally.

And have you ever heard of a lovely chemical called white phosphorus? Israel used this on civilian neighbourhoods not all that long ago in Gaza. It causes some rather horrific chemical burns, as in, this stuff will burn off you skin, muscle, and other tissues down to the bone. And I don't think you really understand how much sleep deprivation sucks. They're not talking about only letting you get three or four hours of sleep a night. Have you ever been up for a week? I have, and trust me, a week straight with no sleep at all is one of the most unpleasant experiences you'll have. After two or three days, you begin hallucinating. It really screws with your mind and your body. Sensory deprivation can also screw you up for a long time when it goes on long enough. Spend a day or two in a sensory deprivation tank, tell me after how easy these terrorists have it.

[sgreger1]

Sgreger1, you're sort of missing the point on the whole religion side of it. Your religion doesn't govern US decisions. There's that much loathed separation of church and state clause in US law, that forbids the government from taking actions that would promote or lead to one religion becoming official and ruling over others. Basing who we fight wars against and who we consider allies on a book created by a group of illiterate tribesmen thousands of years ago seems like a pretty clear violation of it. You'd be pissed about such things if we had a Muslim president who made all his decisions for the country based on the Qu'ran. Just like I can't force you to believe the Bhagavad Gita is the word of God, you can't force your particular preferred story on me.

As for your response about cease fires, if you kept up to date on the conflict and actively followed it you'd realise why your excuse for them doesn't really work. In most cases where Israel has agreed to a cease fire, it's been leading up to peace talks. The reason Hezbollah and Hamas start launching rockets is because of the ludicrous demands Israel makes. They basically were given the Palestinians' land after WWI, and have the nerve in their peace talks to try and force the Palestinians to live only on the most inhospitable, arid lands in the region. The other big reason Palestinian groups start launching rockets again is because a group called the settlers just keep on taking more and more land, slowly expanding Israel's borders illegally.

And have you ever heard of a lovely chemical called white phosphorus? Israel used this on civilian neighbourhoods not all that long ago in Gaza. It causes some rather horrific chemical burns, as in, this stuff will burn off you skin, muscle, and other tissues down to the bone. And I don't think you really understand how much sleep deprivation sucks. They're not talking about only letting you get three or four hours of sleep a night. Have you ever been up for a week? I have, and trust me, a week straight with no sleep at all is one of the most unpleasant experiences you'll have. After two or three days, you begin hallucinating. It really screws with your mind and your body. Sensory deprivation can also screw you up for a long time when it goes on long enough. Spend a day or two in a sensory deprivation tank, tell me after how easy these terrorists have it.

Okay,

1) I never said anything about religion, surely you have mistaken someone else's post as my own. I am a fierce proponent of separation of church and state and am not religious myself. I think your comment was directed at someone else and you erroneously put my name on it. I said we should not be allies with Israel and that we need to just mind our own business and quit propping up proxies like Israel because it does not serve us in the long run.

2) I am very well acquainted with white phosphorous. As a forward observer in the army I controlled white phosphorous 155 artillery rounds on multiple occasions (absolutely awesome stuff btw, will burn through metal or anywhere that oxygen is present, and you can't get it off of you once it's on). I am also aware that Israel has used this on civilians (an atrocity to say the least). I don't condone it because I know how utterly devastating it's effects are (I burned down over an acre of green forest on a range with white phosphorous shells once). That being said, when you are fighting an enemy that does not adhere to the rules of war under the geneva conventions (the terrorists do NOT follow rules) anything goes imo. They don't follow procedure for captured POW's and instead cut their heads off etc. They heartlessly lob rockets and mortars onto innocents on the israeli border. Sorry for not shedding a tear for the terrorists.

3) I have been up for more than a week before. The hallucinations are extremely annoying and that's when the shadow people come out Scary shit (but still not torture). Torture is what the insurgents do to our troops. I love how you shed tears for the enemy yet turn a blind eye when they do the same to our boys.




@ Danielan, Re: Isolationist Philosophy:

We were Isolationists for a good part of our history here in this country and it worked just fine. Pre-emptive strikes should only be condoned when an immanent threat is there to warrant an attack, not just because we want to bring democracy to Iraq. We spend too much money on foreign aid, too much money propping up proxies like Israel, and too much money on wars that have no return on investment (even if we win). This needs to stop, because we are out of money.

[LaZeR]

While thankfully my son returned home safely, if something had happened to him, I would have been less than a true Christian if I didn't pray to my God Jesus Christ (not Allah) for the person who did the horrible deed. In fact, I pray for Osama's salvation as well as all Arabs and Israelis as well. I have even started including you in my prayers.


So if that is the type religious fanaticism you are talking about, yes it definitely needs to part of the modern world. In fact, now more than ever before.

You know I may joke around and kick it foul BUT I'm a Christian at heart myself and also had a son serve two tours in Iraq within the past 6 years. I'm with ya bud.

[danielan]

We were Isolationists for a good part of our history here in this country and it worked just fine. Pre-emptive strikes should only be condoned when an immanent threat is there to warrant an attack, not just because we want to bring democracy to Iraq. We spend too much money on foreign aid, too much money propping up proxies like Israel, and too much money on wars that have no return on investment (even if we win). This needs to stop, because we are out of money.

What period was that? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelin...ary_operations Maybe a couple years right before 1941, and that turned out badly for Europe and Asia.

I'm not really arguing for preemptive strikes in most cases. I'm suggesting that when the shooting wars start it is better to engage them outside our country. There is a spectrum of actions we can take and maybe we should scale it back a notch or two, but disengagement and isolation is IMO too far - power vacuums are usually filled by someone.

Iraq is a large discussion, but basically, we didn't start out intending to bring democracy to Iraq - we started out just intending to just get them out of Kuwait. This was largely considered a step too small by the pundits left and right. i.e., "why didn't we finish the job"? was the mantra during Bush I's term.

Doing anything these days is a damned if you do and damned if you don't proposition, probably the only thing I agree with Obama on is that this is the era of "gotcha" politics - but both sides do it as enthusiastically as the other and he is no exception.

The media pundits, armchair quarterbacks and revisionists tell us all what to think and we affix their sound bites to our bumpers and think we are cool - all the while being too intellectually lazy, brainwashed, drug addled and stupefied with drink to take back what is ours.

[sgreger1]

What period was that? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelin...ary_operations Maybe a couple years right before 1941, and that turned out badly for Europe and Asia.

I'm not really arguing for preemptive strikes in most cases. I'm suggesting that when the shooting wars start it is better to engage them outside our country. There is a spectrum of actions we can take and maybe we should scale it back a notch or two, but disengagement and isolation is IMO too far - power vacuums are usually filled by someone.

Iraq is a large discussion, but basically, we didn't start out intending to bring democracy to Iraq - we started out just intending to just get them out of Kuwait. This was largely considered a step too small by the pundits left and right. i.e., "why didn't we finish the job"? was the mantra during Bush I's term.

Doing anything these days is a damned if you do and damned if you don't proposition, probably the only thing I agree with Obama on is that this is the era of "gotcha" politics - but both sides do it as enthusiastically as the other and he is no exception.

The media pundits, armchair quarterbacks and revisionists tell us all what to think and we affix their sound bites to our bumpers and think we are cool - all the while being too intellectually lazy, brainwashed, drug addled and stupefied with drink to take back what is ours.

I think we would agree on most issues here. Like I said, I don't mean completely isolationist, I mean that prior to this last century we were relatively isolationist. If a real evil looms over our heads than yes we should strike them before it comes to our borders. like WWII, we needed to go out and lay the smackdown, but truthfully, Iraq and Afghanistan are of no value to us. Do you not agree we spend too much money giving foreign aid? Do you not agree that the wars have been fought without the intention to win, that they have been executed poorly? As part of my life experience I have learned that we aren't trying to win, we pay endless amounts of money to those who wish to do us harm and we don't fight to win.

I just think our money could be better spent elsewhere. We should tell the world (that already hates us) to fu*k themselves, and only intervene when it is of value to us. I know the history of Iraq, and I understand why we were/are there. But really we have nothing to gain even if we win. Save our money and wait for the real threat, the theatre is heating up and danger is on the horizon, we should save our resources for when that day comes so we can strike with deadly force. Fighting on multiple fronts never leads to victory.

[tom502]

Instead of the endless wars we fight now, in Iraq and Afganistan, I'd rather we had went there, if we did at all, and literally took over the place, installed our own government, and locked away the dissenters, and took the oil.

[shikitohno]

Ah, yes, I mixed you up with Proud MarineDad's comments sgreger1. My bad

[bsd777]

How did I miss this thread all full of crap? Giving Proud Marine Dad crap because he believes the bible? Those giving, I'll go out on a limb here, and guess are probably religious fanatics themselves. Their religion? Liberalism and environmentalism. The former, clearly a mental illness, the later, a group-think cult.

Then there's the Jew haters and the "they hate us because we don't hate Jews" too crowd. Radical Islam is at war with the infidels (that means you, unless you're a Muslim and sometimes, then still, if you're not sufficiently Muslim) . Riddle me this, do they hate the Christians in the Philippines because of Jews to? And the Hindus in India, because of Jews? And Van Gogh, because of Jews? Get a clue, everyone has been invited and none are free to not participate.