Let Us Honor True Greatness!

[tom502]

I agree we are better than Pakistan, Somalia, Saudi Arabia, Haiti, Mexico, and many more.

[sgreger1]

I agree we are better than Pakistan, Somalia, Saudi Arabia, Haiti, Mexico, and many more.

Im sorry man, but North Korea is worse off financially, they have a terrible quality of life, almost everyone is starving, no real economy, a dictator that wastes money while his people starve. And they enjoy almost 0 of the freedoms we have here in the USA. How could you say they have it better over there? Have you ever read any of the books written by people who escaped? I would rather live in Iraq than N Korea.

[Roo]

Judge Faust, you left Pol Pot off your list... Listen, we don't know each other and have only been afforded a few brief opportunities to exchange opinions. So I will blame that for at least one misunderstanding: I take issue with your assertion that "when Chinese people tell me what I don't want to hear about their government, I assume they are lying". Or something to that effect. When I engage in thoughtful political conversation with the Chinese, there is nothing I "don't want to hear", and I never assume anyone is lying. You have vastly underestimated my affinity for empathy and cross-cultural understanding. I aim to bridge the cultural, religious, "racial", and political divides that are perpetuated by the ignorance and ethnocentrism that unfortunately informs the world view of most societies, especially ours. I thrive on the opportunities I create to make an attempt at genuine understanding of the world's differences through travel, constructive dialog, historical knowledge, and my firm stance on cultural relativism. I understand that you did not know this about me, and you are pardoned for presuming that I share the undying patriotism and unforgiving political self-righteousness of the majority that must have informed your assessment of me as close-minded toward those who support China's government. I ask questions to listen and learn, not to argue my counter-point.

On to the Chairman: He was a vile human being when the sum of his deeds are added up. I would hope that because he is one of your "all-time best people" or whatever you said, you have read a biography or two and consulted some history books. Yes, Mao was positively heroic in the early years of the CCP; as you and I know he was indeed a symbol of hope and empowerment for 800 million impoverished and powerless Chinese during a time of unprecedented instability and uncertainty. He temporarily and admirably joined the ranks of his enemy to defeat the Japanese, then turned his efforts back to the plight of the proletariat and against all odds, led his contingency to a truly heroic victory over the Guomindang. He accomplished the seemingly impossible task of unifying a greatly divided nation and reinstating national pride and self-reliance. He established an equality of the sexes that at the time had no precedent anywhere in the world. His ambition was unrivaled, I'll certainly give him that.

But what can you say of the eventual outcome of his later ambitions? From '56 until he bought the farm? Can I assume you know what came of his "great leap forward"? Possibly the largest famine in human history. There are accounts of the means people employed to stay alive that are way too horrific to detail here. Yet he refused to change course, accept outside help, or admit that his agricultural reforms were based purely on blind ambition and fantasy and continued to deny through propaganda that the nation was anything but prospering. As a result, his beloved peasants and farmers were dying by the tens of millions, and he was solely to blame for denying that there were enormous holes in his plot for fear that he would lose power. Hardly heroic. I trust that you know the outcome of his genius idea to melt pots, pans, and all metallic personal property collected from the masses for the purpose of competing with Britain's steel production. Then came the Cultural Revolution. I assume you are aware of what resulted from this ideological horrorshow and the cult of personality he created? Children sent their parents to labor camps. Students literally hanged or stoned to death their teachers. Scholars and scientists were paraded through the streets wearing "counterevolutionary" billboards on their way to public execution. Ancient religious texts and temples were burned and destroyed. Families destroyed. Out with the old, in with the new. He ordered the total destruction of China's 5,000 year history. His zealous, fanatic army of brain-washed teenagers carried out some of history's greatest atrocities in his name. He purposefully aimed to and partially succeeded in robbing a whole nation of its humanity by abolishing and prohibiting art, science, tradition, academics, historical treasure, and the religious and philosophical contributions of thousands of years of one of our greatest societies. His armies (and to be fair, those of his successors) reduced the number of Tibetan monasteries and temples by 99%. Monks, doctors, professors, poets, artists, and landowners were forced into hard labor. I could go on and on and on. I'd be surprised if anyone is still reading. If so, does this sound like a hero to anyone?

I'm not sure why I spent so much time writing this. To call Mao Zedong a hero is to pardon his responsibility for the death of millions, and to endorse fear-mongering, deception, brutality, frenzy, brainwashing, and the destruction of morality, dignity, and humanity as a means to maintain political control. Maybe you truly admire those qualities in a leader, Judge. Let me know.

And for what its worth, Deng Xiaoping had way more to do with China's current economic success than Mao, precisely because he had the courage and foresight to go against the hard line and open trade with the West.

And Tom, for god's sake man, look into the current state of North Korea and the quality of life there. Watch a documentary or something. I'm not trying to be hard on you, but what you have said is ridiculous. Cheers to all, and to all a good night.

[tom502]

I suspect the US has more homeless people living under bridges and boxes than N.Korea's population. The same with our prisons. Now I am not saying N.Korea, or any place is perfect, I know they have problems. But I am sure they have their well to do's, and average living people as well. We mostly on the forum have jobs, a home, and some money, so we don't really focus on the bad things in our own nation, and it's easy to point fingers at others, esp when that's all our media and government highlights. I am idealistic, and utopian. I know that often/usually does not relate to reality. I like the idealism of the the US, but like the Soviet Union, it is failing, and many people are suffering because of it. A nation with so many prisons, corrupt politicians, failed government projects, rampant crime, rampant poverty, homelessness, mental illness, drug dependency, out of wedlock births of impoverished people.... I don't think we are in such a successful utopia. I also don't think it's a valid approach to have a "love it or leave it" mentality, as another poster expressed. It's just a bitch rant, that's all we are doing, and all it is.

[RRK]

As a Libertarian I have to interject that our view of the failings of America are that they resulted from straying from our ideology rather then following it off a cliff.

Also, a Utopia is by definition imaginary.

[sgreger1]

I suspect the US has more homeless people living under bridges and boxes than N.Korea's population. The same with our prisons. Now I am not saying N.Korea, or any place is perfect, I know they have problems. But I am sure they have their well to do's, and average living people as well. We mostly on the forum have jobs, a home, and some money, so we don't really focus on the bad things in our own nation, and it's easy to point fingers at others, esp when that's all our media and government highlights. I am idealistic, and utopian. I know that often/usually does not relate to reality. I like the idealism of the the US, but like the Soviet Union, it is failing, and many people are suffering because of it. A nation with so many prisons, corrupt politicians, failed government projects, rampant crime, rampant poverty, homelessness, mental illness, drug dependency, out of wedlock births of impoverished people.... I don't think we are in such a successful utopia. I also don't think it's a valid approach to have a "love it or leave it" mentality, as another poster expressed. It's just a bitch rant, that's all we are doing, and all it is.

Per capita, the US citizen is better off than any 3rd world country, especially N korea. We have our homeless, but the average american homeless person makes an average of 50$ a day begging. That is more than a "middle class" N korean person sees in months. Our homeless have a better quality of life than in N korea, and the VAST majority of our citizens are middle or lower class which = pretty good compared to the world.


We have our problems, and yes we are failing, but to say we should follow the example of nation like N korea is insane. When 90% of your people are staving at any given time, there is no way you could logicly make the claim that its better than the US.

[sgreger1]

As a Libertarian I have to interject that our view of the failings of America are that they resulted from straying from our ideology rather then following it off a cliff.

Also, a Utopia is by definition imaginary.

Exactly. its our want to constantly emulate europe that will be our fall. We should bring it back to basics since that worked better than anything.

[Roo]

Your all a bunch of traitors, and if this were China or N Korea you would be shot as a dissident. Maybe they are on to something. I think half of you on Snuson are privaledged kids sitting on your laptop bought at Walmart who have nothing better to do than slam america while hailing some of the most despotic nations on earth as great places to live..

Wait, really? Sorry to rehash a week-old discussion here, but I hope you were speaking off-the-cuff, so to speak, in a reactionary and not a thoughtful manner. The fact that we have access to this very website and can speak freely about what we think about our government and that of China, N Korea, etc is a blessing to all of us. Actually, it's not a blessing but a right as an American, and I'm thankful for that. I bet this forum is accessible in China simply because they haven't seen it yet, but who knows; with some keywords in this discussion and several thousand people employed to search for them, it likely isn't. Maybe you were just referring to 2 people. But as far as "anti-American sentiment" is concerned, let it ride, brother, that's what a free country is all about. Part of the point I was trying to make. In the case of Faust, while I like the ol' sonofabitch, I maybe agree with your "GTF out if you don't like it" comment. On the other hand, I've found myself in the peculiar situation of badmouthing China, while I'm typically defending it. Sgreger1, you are so gung-ho American, and I suppose understandibly so as a serviceman, and I can sympathize with a few of your comments. But saying that the countries in question are perhaps "on to something" by shooting dissidents, which they do, is inexcusable. That is as absurdly "pro-American" as anything you have deemed "anti-American", and for the record, as you know we have the freedom to crticize our government however we want, as you so often do. So chill, brother, and think about what it might be like to be an appreciative citizen in one of these societies you speak of. See the other side of the proverbial coin. And I, for one, have never set foot in a goddamn Walmart, and my laptop is broken I broke it China actually -- shouldve just hopped a flight to where the screen was manufactured lol. Where's Faust. I do like that guy. He's a good read.

[sgreger1]

Wait, really? Sorry to rehash a week-old discussion here, but I hope you were speaking off-the-cuff, so to speak, in a reactionary and not a thoughtful manner. The fact that we have access to this very website and can speak freely about what we think about our government and that of China, N Korea, etc is a blessing to all of us. Actually, it's not a blessing but a right as an American, and I'm thankful for that. I bet this forum is accessible in China simply because they haven't seen it yet, but who knows; with some keywords in this discussion and several thousand people employed to search for them, it likely isn't. Maybe you were just referring to 2 people. But as far as "anti-American sentiment" is concerned, let it ride, brother, that's what a free country is all about. Part of the point I was trying to make. In the case of Faust, while I like the ol' sonofabitch, I maybe agree with your "GTF out if you don't like it" comment. On the other hand, I've found myself in the peculiar situation of badmouthing China, while I'm typically defending it. Sgreger1, you are so gung-ho American, and I suppose understandibly so as a serviceman, and I can sympathize with a few of your comments. But saying that the countries in question are perhaps "on to something" by shooting dissidents, which they do, is inexcusable. That is as absurdly "pro-American" as anything you have deemed "anti-American", and for the record, as you know we have the freedom to crticize our government however we want, as you so often do. So chill, brother, and think about what it might be like to be an appreciative citizen in one of these societies you speak of. See the other side of the proverbial coin. And I, for one, have never set foot in a goddamn Walmart, and my laptop is broken I broke it China actually -- shouldve just hopped a flight to where the screen was manufactured lol. Where's Faust. I do like that guy. He's a good read.

Roo, I am pro american, in that this is the only country i've got because I don't plan to move, and I like what it was founded upon. But as you know, I bad mouth our government and slap it around like a filthy whore because that's what it's become. It's like when they taught us how to operate the 50cal; "It's a bad bitch, and likes to do it's own thing, therefore you gotta treat it like the bitch it is if you want it to work properly for you."


I am glad we are free enough to hate america openly if we please, and I wouldn't have it any other way. But in reading the posts lately I find that everyone is saying America is so evil and lacking of freedom that it would be better to move to N Korea or Communist China because their system is somuch more free and their system works so much better. It is beyond comprehension that anyone would say this. Can you get on the web and bad-mouth the gov in N Korea or china? No, that shit's all censored.

I enjoy reading Judge's rants also, even though I don't agree with him, because I always like to hear the other end of the story. This is why I spend my time here talking with people like Sage and Judge instead of on a conservative forum where it would be nothing but an echo chamber of us all agreeing with each other and smelling our farts like a South park San Franciscan.


But some of the anti-American sentiment here is just getting rediculous. We have our problems here in America, but for God's sake people, realize what we have here in this country. Instead of bad mouthing it, try to reform it by melting the phone lines in congress, voting a certian way etc. Just saying we're an evil empire and the worst, least free country in the world is not only innimagineably incorrect, but it doesn't fix anything.

I hate to be THAT guy who's always pro america, but I find that I have to be on Snuson just so there's some balance in the discussion. I'll say **** the government with you anyday over some beers, but I will not say **** America, because as a conservative-libertarian (whatever you want to call it), I still believe we can get back on track here if we just remember our roots.


And while my comment was "off-the-cuff" I still maintain that if you think this country is so evil, that STFU&GTFO, like so many hundreds of thousands did when Russia and Germany were being evil empires.

[tom502]

Obama is gonna send 30,000 troops to Afganistan. On Michael Moore's webiste, he has an "open letter to the president" that says Obama will be the new war president and lose so many of his loyal followers if he sends them.

[Roo]

This is why I spend my time here talking with people like Sage and Judge instead of on a conservative forum where it would be nothing but an echo chamber of us all agreeing with each other and smelling our farts

^ LOL!

I don't hate America at all. Why would I? I hate what we are doing in the world at the moment, and how we as an entire people are often represented and perceived outside of our country, and I'm not terribly keen on the government myself. But hating America or thinking I would have more freedom in China (hahahahaha) is not at all why I would move there. I think the Judge made it clear why he would. I said all that because I didn't see a whole lot of anti-Americanism going on, aside for the ol' Judge, and Tom says weird shit too, but that's his thing (manbearpig). And I think he's gone off the deep end with this N Korea business, but I'm fine letting him think what he wants to think about it, although I would strongly encourage him to visit and see for himself.



They've got the goose step down pat:



HOTTIES!!



Subsidized housing!



No traffic jams or pesky traffic signals!



Energy Efficient!

[tom502]

I don't think I so much hate America, but I hate what is has become, and where it's going, and how it has failed it's citizens. The original ideals of America, I agree with, but something has gone very very wrong as it has turned out today. I think some nations may be "better" in some areas, many worse. But what get's me is the ignorance and arrogance, that the nation seems to have, by condemning and poiting fingers at other nations, when we have done the same and worse, and trying to put the idea that we are all that, while we have warzone streets, massive crime, violent criminals with a rap sheet thicker than a L.Ron Hubbard novel let loose on the streets to gun down cops having coffee, and then be aided and abbetted by other crime lovers. I mean, the list of failures can go on and on, and yet no one in power will ever address these issues, it's like our "leaders" and national agenda have all become pussified. That's why I tend to like the idea of a strong idealistic nation, but I know those are far from perfect, well, maybe Singapore. But I think a big problem in enforced liberal political correctness, and just a head in the sand mentality, and the only candidate that really knew what he was talking about, Ron Paul was paraded around by the media like he was clown, and look what we have, more of the same, uncaring, nannystate, corrupt, welfare and crime inducing failure. I don't hate America, I just want a nation I can be proud of.

[sgreger1]

Lol, best failed political move of all time was when N Korea set up that fake city to try and show it on the news so that the world would think they rock. Faking surprise that fake dictator fakes fake city.

[sgreger1]

I don't think I so much hate America, but I hate what is has become, and where it's going, and how it has failed it's citizens. The original ideals of America, I agree with, but something has gone very very wrong as it has turned out today. I think some nations may be "better" in some areas, many worse. But what get's me is the ignorance and arrogance, that the nation seems to have, by condemning and poiting fingers at other nations, when we have done the same and worse, and trying to put the idea that we are all that, while we have warzone streets, massive crime, violent criminals with a rap sheet thicker than a L.Ron Hubbard novel let loose on the streets to gun down cops having coffee, and then be aided and abbetted by other crime lovers. I mean, the list of failures can go on and on, and yet no one in power will ever address these issues, it's like our "leaders" and national agenda have all become pussified. That's why I tend to like the idea of a strong idealistic nation, but I know those are far from perfect, well, maybe Singapore. But I think a big problem in enforced liberal political correctness, and just a head in the sand mentality, and the only candidate that really knew what he was talking about, Ron Paul was paraded around by the media like he was clown, and look what we have, more of the same, uncaring, nannystate, corrupt, welfare and crime inducing failure. I don't hate America, I just want a nation I can be proud of.

Well we can both agree there. You will rarely hear me singing the praise of our leadership.

That's why I tend to like the idea of a strong idealistic nation,

We used to have that here, but it's strayed. Everyone wants to emulate europe and do the socialist thing. Then on the other side corporations want to create their own ruling class, ruling by economic means and buying out the gov via lobbyists.


And while our nation does do a lot of bad things, all of which I admit we have done, I still think that comparitavely, we still have a good country here, and the people are good people. We just need to get back on track.

[sgreger1]

Give me four years to teach the children and the seed I have sown will never be uprooted.
- Vladimir Ilyich Lenin


I guess he accomplished his goal.