Does anyone believe that ObamaCare will not cover illegals?

[sgreger1]

I, too, do not really care if illegals get health care.

If someone gets sick, let's treat them. Seems like the human thing to do.

But that's just my take.

8)

It's not the job of healthcare to weed out who is legal or who is illegal.

That's what we have Immigration and Customs Enforcement for.

United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) is a component of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS). Our mission is to protect national security by enforcing our nation's customs and immigration laws.

The same people bitching about bureaucracy and the size of government are the ones that want to complicate healthcare and add another layer of bureaucracy to the system to fix a problem that should be handled elsewhere.

We tie the hands of people like ICE or our border patrol agents, thus hindering them from doing their job. Second of all, if the bill says no illegals, than how can you say Dr's should not obide by this law?

This is the problem here in America and elsewhere, you people think there are no rules. The same people calling for big government run programs and "tight regulations" don't want to follow any of the rules or regulations. This is chaos and defeats the purpose of establishing big gov and regulations, since you just plan to break them anyways.


I agree with Lx, lets cut them all out of the picture.




Some of you people seem like you've never worked a day in your lives and don't understand how important money is to a nation. If we go broke than no one benefits, as we are seeing today. If you are a working citizen and pay into the system, than you may recieve social services and benefits from said system. If you come here in complete disregard for our laws, refuse to learn our language, and then not pay taxes, you should not get tax payer funded assistance. End of story.

[paulwall9]

That is a very valid point you make there sgreger1!

[sgreger1]

The poor already have Medicaid, but millions haven't bothered to sign up for it. Young people who think they're immortal don't bother with insurance. Can you think of anybody else?

Okay, gladly. In fact I've already posted this in another thread.

I have no health insurance and have been declined by Humana, Blue Cross Blue Shield, Aetna, Anthem, and Trigon. When I lost my last job I was offered COBRA at $1500/month. I have been self employed for the last three years and unable to get insurance because of a pre-existing condition. Though I have appealed and done everything possible, they simply said "No." I pay over $40k a year in taxes.

My wife is covered. She was denied first because she went to a chiropractor voluntarily a few years back and they said they denied her due to "back trauma". And when she did get coverage, they put a 1 year rider on all "female reproductive care". Since then they have refused to cover everything from physical therapy after a torn tendon to an MRI her doctor recommended.

My mother is 52 and has enough saved to comfortably retire at 55. However, she will be denied coverage as would her husband whose job does not offer insurance. As such, she must wait until Medicare kicks in to retire, despite her responsible saving through life.

A friend of mine just lost his job while his wife is going through a threatened miscarriage. They are a new couple, married for two years. He has been denied coverage due to asthma. She has been denied coverage due to pregnancy and complications.

Denied. Not "price raised a little". Not "paying for their indecent lifestyle". Denied an insurance plan.

The insurance market is disgusting. They have artificially inflated the price of medical care for decades and decline coverage at their whim. They stop entrepreneurs from building businesses, people from retiring, businesses from growing, and large companies from competing. They ensure that corporate America runs the show.

Illegals are already getting free medical care. All they have to do is show up at the ER. Nobody can legally be refused treatment. Who else is this bill supposed to cover?

So you like it this way? You think the ER should be used as a well-check room for people without coverage?

Or perhaps a bill should be introduced which aims to fix that issue?

The bill does not FIX the issue. It says no illegals but does not set up any way to actually make sure no illegals get in. All i'm saying is that if Obama was seriouse about cutting costs, he would look into this, as it is one of the largest burdens on our system today.

All this talk about how they want to lower prices, yet they are ignoring the thigns which would ACTUALLY lower prices. This new plan only makes insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies richer. It is counter to what your objective is.



It seems that the only real problem people have isthe pre-existing coverage thing. So why not introduce a simple bill that takes the pre-existing conditions clause out. why all the rest of this?

[sgreger1]

As for the list of cancer drugs, don't be fooled by the insurance companies in America. Drugs are already being rationed, care is already being rationed. People are declined on claims every day. And which is the bigger risk: a government which must cut costs, or a for-profit corporation which must make stellar profits to please share holders?

Well to figure that out all we have to do is look at the UK. Here, even with insurance companies making a profit, we have access to the most high-tech drugs available. In the UK, they do not. Case closed I guess.

[sgreger1]

I think some people have forgotten health care is not a RIGHT, it is a priveilage! Now, I may not believe in sending away the sick i think that we should help everyone, but that is not how buisness goes and I also understand healthcare is not a right!

I agree with you man, people who genuinely cannot afford something should still be treated. I do not mind paying for the GENUINELY disdvantaged, as even the poor are our brothers on this planet. But there is too much abuse. If an illegal comes here and gets hit by a car, save his life in the hospital, and then he goes ona list for deportation. But allowing them to come here, get heart surgery and then go back home is, well, you can see why we're f@#%ing broke right?

[Veganpunk]

This might be off topic, but I just don't see the big deal about illegal immigrants. I live in South Alabama and the last two construction jobs I've worked at are full of "mexicans'. I use the parenthetical because they weren't all from Mexico. :shock: There are other countries in South America. The U.S.A. has totally screwed over a lot of these countries. These people come over here, work jobs that most American's think are below them, (the American work ethic has dropped substantially in my generation) and send 90% of their wages back to there families. I know it's capital not being circulated through our economy, but I would do the same for my family. Regardless of where your from, color of your skin, sex, whatever, you'll do what it takes to provide for your family. It's whispered racism all over again. One of the downsides to being a white male, is that other white males think it's okay to whisper racist comments to and around you. Before it was "those lazy black people", now's it's becoming more and more "those sorry mexicans".

[tom502]

I don't think anyone "blames" them. I understand their situation, to a degree. But also, I think they have to "fix" their own country. I don't think they so much "do jobs Americans won't", I think they do jobs for a wage that Americans won't. I don't think it's racism. But we only have so much pie, and already it's just crumbs of the crust now. But the whole "system" is messed up to me. In every area. I don't see it getting better either. Sorry to be a pessimist.

[sgreger1]

This might be off topic, but I just don't see the big deal about illegal immigrants. I live in South Alabama and the last two construction jobs I've worked at are full of "mexicans'. I use the parenthetical because they weren't all from Mexico. :shock: There are other countries in South America. The U.S.A. has totally screwed over a lot of these countries. These people come over here, work jobs that most American's think are below them, (the American work ethic has dropped substantially in my generation) and send 90% of their wages back to there families. I know it's capital not being circulated through our economy, but I would do the same for my family. Regardless of where your from, color of your skin, sex, whatever, you'll do what it takes to provide for your family. It's whispered racism all over again. One of the downsides to being a white male, is that other white males think it's okay to whisper racist comments to and around you. Before it was "those lazy black people", now's it's becoming more and more "those sorry mexicans".

I can agree on one thing. In life, it is every man for themselves. If I were living in a 3rd world country, I would do whatever I had to do to be able to eat.

That set aside, as a 1st world country trying to fix its many problems, we need to address the fact that they are a strain on our system and frankly are breaking the law, 1 time when they come here, and another time when they end up in jail like such a high volume do unfortunately.


The myth that they are doing jobs that Americans don't want to do is bogus. Especially with millions unemployed today. Construction jobs used to be guys in their 20's that didn't want to goto college, but now illegals will do it cheaper.
People doing lawnwork and agricultural services used to be done by Americans, but mexicans will do it cheaper.
Just about any job out there, minus working in the fields on a farm, is a job that americans would/will do. However, we ask a living wage be paid for our services.

They are a convenient tool for businesses because they can pay them less and not worry about them unionizing and asking for higher wages.

[sgreger1]

VeganPunk:

Also, racism has nothing to do with this. I am married to a philipino immegrant who came here when she was younger. Her mom brought her here legally, came with nothing, and now owns a company that earns her nearly 400k a year. There is no excuse for breaking the law. Illegals are breaking the law. No one has a problem with immegrants.

[Pete]

Don't normally get involved in these types of discussions but there is a lot of bullshit being talked here. The simple fact is the UK life expectancy is longer than the US, despite US spending being more than twice per head than the UK.

If you want to believe the crap that Fox news spews out, fine but look at the facts. Our good old 'socialist' health service saved my life, kept my mother alive when she was suffering from leukaemia.

Stop claiming that we have a second rate system here, I've had to use both and I wouldn't swap the UK system for the US in a million years.

[Veganpunk]

I do agree with you on that aspect. But why is our living wage so high? What caused that? In the last 5 years, prices have skyrocketed. I know it's partially due to the average Joe spending money (credit) that he does not have, but I think a Trillion dollar war had a little part in that.

[sgreger1]

@ Pete.

I personally do not take the stance that Uk has crappy health care. I also do not agree that the US has bad healthcare, because in my experience our healthcare system is amazing. So amazing in fact that even your own queen and many important people from all over the world come HERE for treatment because of how excelent our Dr's are here, because they get paid more.

However that doesnt matter to me because I am not rich, and I agree it is too expensive. Not for me personally, because I have employer provided healthcare so it is extremely cheap, but a lot of America does not have this.

But be advised, what Obama wants is NOT the system in the UK, so don't think that if this bill passes it will run like the UK's system because it will not.


My complaint is that his reform is not actually reform, just more of the same, and just more profit for insurance companies and drug companies. We will have to wait and see. But incase you havn't followed politics in america for the last 50 years, it ALWAYS ends up profiting the same people, even if it is branded as "change".

[VBSnus]

The bill does not FIX the issue. It says no illegals but does not set up any way to actually make sure no illegals get in. All i'm saying is that if Obama was seriouse about cutting costs, he would look into this, as it is one of the largest burdens on our system today.

All you were saying before was that Obama should look into malpractice reform. Now all you're saying is immigration. Let's face it, you won't agree with the bill no matter what he does.

It seems that the only real problem people have isthe pre-existing coverage thing. So why not introduce a simple bill that takes the pre-existing conditions clause out. why all the rest of this?

Because companies will find a way to once again screw you. No pre-existing conditions but riders. Or removals. Etc. Anyone who believes the health insurance companies are there for the common good and there for their customers is horribly delusional.

I'm as tired of arguing these points as I am of not having insurance coverage. I'm even more tired of seeing people I love suffering as a result. I will try my damnedest from this point on to keep my eyes out of these threads.

[sgreger1]

I do agree with you on that aspect. But why is our living wage so high? What caused that? In the last 5 years, prices have skyrocketed. I know it's partially due to the average Joe spending money (credit) that he does not have, but I think a Trillion dollar war had a little part in that.

Americans were asking for a living wage long before the war. We have to recieve a 3-4% raise each year JUST to keep up with inflation. Meanwhile as the economy stagnates, prices become higher as everyone tries to squeeze out one more penny from you. So your purchasing power is less for the most part.


Why is our living wage so high? Because he have a higher standard of living. Because this is not a third world country. Is that a good enough reason?

Why lower what we get paid so we can compete with illegals, when we can instead enforce our laws and delete the illegal immegration problem, thereby not making it necessary for us to work cheaper to compete with them. How do you compete for pay with someone who is starving? We would like to move past the "starving" stage here.

[sgreger1]

The bill does not FIX the issue. It says no illegals but does not set up any way to actually make sure no illegals get in. All i'm saying is that if Obama was seriouse about cutting costs, he would look into this, as it is one of the largest burdens on our system today.

All you were saying before was that Obama should look into malpractice reform. Now all you're saying is immigration. Let's face it, you won't agree with the bill no matter what he does.

I said before that my 2 things were illegals out of the system and TORT reform. Obama hinted that "we should consider" tort reform, however as always did not make it clear if it is something that is going to be in a bill or not, nor did he push the subject.

I understand your fight VB, but you realize that this bill passing will not accomplish the goal you are looking for where insurance companies are all of a sudden friendly and/or you dont have to see anyone suffer anymore. This bill just makes more of the same. They need to go back, re-write it in a manner than is not expensive, but changes something.


Frankly after a long debate in my head over this, I think he would have been better off just going for a single payer system. I am against gov running shit, but this half-and-half bill will not accomplish anything.