The eighth largest economy of the world

[sagedil]

holnrew, I've always wondered the same thing. If you look closely at our country and what it has accomplished, so much of it was done by immigrants, the children of immigrants, the grandchildren, etc.

If I find any comfort, it is in knowing that the same thing people say today about immigrants from Mexico and Latin America, they said before about the Chinese, about the Irish, about the Russians, the Poles, etc. People ALWAYS bitch about the immigrants here not fitting in., about not speaking the language. But in almost every wave of immigration over the past 150 years, the first wave NEVER spoke the language. But their children did.

The best part is when folks talk about the illegals taking and not putting back. The funny part is that 90% of them are working on fake social security numbers. So all the social security taxes they pay is just a gift to Uncle Sam. Plus, most of them would be getting tax refunds, but can't. Also free money for the government..

Every comprehensive study ever done has shown that immigration has always been a net plus for this country. Te great railroad that finally linked this country?? the entire western half was built using Chinese labor. Jobs no Americans wanted.

[sychodelix]

What you say is true sagedil. But there are the illegals get paid in cash, under the table, and there's a lot of them. I know because I used to live in southwest Arizona. The thing that makes people mad is that those do not pay any taxes and many have large families that live on welfare and food stamps, and that does add up to being a drain.

Also, the children learning english doesn't always happen either because I've seen plenty of families with children that never learn english.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with legal immigrants, or even migrant workers, but the ones that don't pay taxes and live off welfare are a problem. Then again, so are people like drug dealers that make tons of money and live off a government check while not paying taxes. The only real way to deal with stuff like this is a flat/fair tax, although lots of people don't like that idea either.

[Jason]

I guess it's hard for people to understand unless they have lived around it long term.

When I go to the DMV, I see people taking the DL test in whatever their native language is. Street signs are all in english, how are they going to read them?

A large number of immigrants around here (legal and illegal) send their paychecks to their home countries or take it across the border and spend it there. It may not seem like that would affect the state's economy much, but it does.

Crime rates? I don't know any exact figures, but here's something a little disturbing....

The previous tenant of the house I'm living in was stabbed to death in the very room I'm sitting in....by someone who crossed the border illegally. He broke in, killed this woman (his ex-girlfriend), took her baby and fled back to Mexico. They never found him. These things happen down here more than people think; it's pretty scary.

And it's true that less and less of their children are bothering to learn English these days....why do that when your parents don't encourage it, and the schools cater to you by offering more and more classes spoken in your native language?

Don't get me wrong; I really don't have anything against immigrants, but there is a real problem in the southwestern states due to illegal immigration, and I do think it needs to be addressed....

[TexDis]

Re: The eighth largest economy of the world

...WTF is going on in CA?

I saw a story on the Communist News Network that stated people are leaving the state at a record rate, something in the upwards of 200,000 in the last year. Yet the state is not losing population because an estimated legal and illegal immigrants coming in at 225,000 a year.

CNN answered your question.

Texas is almost as bad as Northern Atzlan except for the fact that we likely have more hard-headed and well-armed folks 'round these parts and Austin is horrible, but not nearly as horrible as Hollywood.

Same thing is happening in Mother England, as well. I read something like 250,000 native born Brits are annually leaving for places like Australia, New Zealand and Canada. They can't stand the diversity. Go figure.

[darkwing]

One reason why immigrant kids get some classes in their first language is because they are more likely to become literate in English if they get some literacy in their own first language first - and you only get literate through education, not at home. The idea is for school to help them read and write their first language, the language of home, a bit, then reading and writing in English comes fast and easy. This is not meant to be a cultural sensitivity type of program, it has practical education benefits, they say.

[NonEntity]

Immigrants, Including “Illegal Aliens” in California, Have Much Lower Crime Rate than the Rest of Us

This is true and has historically been true for every immigrant wave in the USA. Immigrants, illegal or legal, tend to have lower crime rates than the population they are joining. Legal immigrants especially tend to be patriotic, law-abiding, and all around ideal citizens.

The second and third generation immigrants are where you will see a crime spike. Not wholly part of American culture and not wholly part of their ancestor's culture, 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants will be disproportionately involved in crime, regardless of culture or country of origin.

This has been true of Irish, Italian, Jewish, etc.ish immigrants throughout our country's history. Also, you will see that the criminal activity associated with any immigrant group will tend to focus on that immigrant group to start with.

I don't pretend to know all the answers, but the public education system is a tremendous socializing tool for incorporating immigrants into American culture. I believe denying education and other services to immigrants will only make things worse, not better.

NonEntity

[sagedil]

Agree with everything NonEntity posted.

[sychodelix]

I do agree that education has to be given to everybody, no matter what. Lack of education is why people tend to turn to crime in the first place, no matter what race, or legal/illegal immigrants.

[Jason]

So none of you mind paying for an illegal immigrant's education? I find that hard to believe. How about college tuition programs for people who aren't even citizens? None of that is fair to the people who came here legally.

I don't know how anyone can say that we don't need some kind of immigration reform in this country. I know people (friends of friends) who have been milking the visa program for YEARS to get benefits; due to wide open loopholes they are able to bend the rules as much as they please. They claim to be poor and yet they open businesses and send most of the profits back to their relatives in their home countries. The government knows this is going on, but the red tape has gotten so thick that it's almost impossible to go after anybody without some kind of major legislative overhaul.

I know it may seem like I am bashing on certain people (Mexican-American in particular), but I assure you that is not the case at all. My girlfriend of 4 years is of Mexican descent, and her mother used to do people's immigration papers for them. They both agree that things are getting out of control in this state.

Sorry if I'm ranting...that's what message boards are for, right? :wink:

[sychodelix]

I don't agree with the college funding (and as far as I know, illegals can't really get free college money, can they?), but the public school funding is gonna happen one way or another, so not much can be said about it. Honestly, there are so many legal immigrants here that have friends/family that are illegals that it's going to be REALLY hard to push any legislation to deal with the situation with lots of people fighting it tooth and nail.

[TexDis]

Immigrants, Including “Illegal Aliens” in California, Have Much Lower Crime Rate than the Rest of Us

LOL. Their very existence here is a crime as they are criminal law breakers by definition.

Major study debunks fear of crime wave from those who cross border from Mexico.

Tell that to the family of a loved one murdered or killed by an illegal alien driving drunk. It is an outrage that even one native-born American should suffer from the actions of an illegal alien that should not be here in the first place, but unfortunately is due to a government that is supposed to protect and serve its citizens looking the other way and not enforcing existing law.

In fact, it is just the opposite of what some xenophobes would have you believe when they try to whip up fears about crime from those who cross over from Mexico to California.

No bias here, lol.

http://www.californiaprogressreport....ants_incl.html

A completely biased, pro-immigrant, left-wing source.

For a truer picture of the overwhelming burden of immigration, one is better served to visit a site like http://www.numbersusa.com/.

[TexDis]

So none of you mind paying for an illegal immigrant's education?

I certainly do. In fact I pay double - private school tuition for my own kids and property taxes for the public school to which I won't subject my children.

Just one more freebie illegals get on the backs of productive, native-born taxpayers who I hope will begin to wake up.

[Tony]

The problems in CA are over taxing, over spending, inept government, and partisan people.

Taxes: CA is not business friendly, period. Businesses leave the state constantly or send it over sees. Less jobs and less taxes paid.
Spending: Its an orgy in Sacramento. And what the government spends to do anything is ridiculous.
Inept Government: We vote in popular people, not smart ones.
Partisan People: This is more a national issue and a reason things will always be screwed up. Its always the other parties fault. Most of the state blames Arnold and a few republicans for all the problems and refuse to consider what there party has also done keeping all the idiots in office.

Cut taxes: put money in our pockets, create new businesses and jobs, stimulate the economy.
Cut spending: Eliminate the pork and the redundancy. Make the government efficient and small(cheaper).
Start fresh: Vote in new people that actually want to work for the people.
Voters: Stop giving your party the free pass to screw up everything.

[Jason]

I agree with all of those points, Tony. What really sucks is that it goes all the way down; from the state, to the counties, and finally city governments. San Diego has some of the most corrupt, inept city officials I've ever seen.....everything from paying off developers to paying off strip club owners. And these people have the balls to give themselves raises on a regular basis when the city is running in the red!

[Slydel]

Since I started a number of different topics pertaining to CA and we are talking about immigration I will rant upon this topic starting with quotes from Sagedil.

Quote #1: "So the latest numbers, it is estimated that about 6.5 percent of California's population in 2000 were illegal immigrants. This is significant but not really the problem you think it might be. Almost all of them have jobs. laws have been changed that make it very difficult for them to get many services anyways. And on a slightly different subject, I will add this...."

My Response:
What about expensive medical service? Expensive schooling at about $10,000 per student? Are they paying property taxes which is used by most states to pay for schooling? I suppose it might be different in CA. Let me know. What about WIC and food stamps? Where is the cost? Can they get these services? If not, then WIC and food stamps do not go towards their cost. I am quite sure they get them here in MI.

Quote #2: "People born outside the United States make up about 35 percent of California’s adult population but represent only about 17 percent of the state prison population"

Great statistic! So what I am gathering from these two quotes are: 1) the majority of immigrants are legal where 6.5% are illegal and the total percentage of immigrants in CA is at 35% (I find hard to believe that the majority are legal), 2) of that 35% only 17% of legal and illegal immigrants make up the prison population (another fact hard to swallow) 3) so 6.5/35 * 17 means that only 3.16% of the prison population is made up of illegal immigrants. This again is also unbelievable. If it is true great.

Second, let me state that I do not have a problem with legal immigration. But from the numbers, I think we should not only stop illegal immigration (they are all breaking the law) but most definitely stop legal immigration as well since they are burdening the state's prison population much more than illegals. From the numbers, legal immigrants make up 13.84% of the aforementioned population. How much does incarcerating a person cost per year? There would be a reduction of 17% of the prison population if there were not any immigrants. Of course, I am just going off of the numbers that Sagedil posted, which I am finding hard to believe, so my sarcasm has been ignited. I suppose the overall 35% produce enough to pay for the prison, school, and medical needs of the immigrants among the other costs of having a much larger population.

I understand that people want to come to the U.S. to better their lives. If they can only do this illegally than that is what they have to do to make it. The problem is the cost. If this immigration problem was happening at the turn of the last century then no one would have a problem with it because immigrants would be a plus to society. They would be producing at a low wage and that would be it, end of story. They would not be reaping the rewards of a socialistic state that we now have. They are now burdening the state. Another thing that angers me is when CNN shows immigrants parading around town with their Mexican flag...not really wanting to become part of the U.S. melting pot. Did not our families that immigrated want their children to assimilate as quickly as possible? Did not our families want us to be Americans? I am not saying that they should give up their heritage but please be Americans first, Mexican second. Is CNN exploiting this behavior? Maybe only a minority of the minority act this way. It is hard to tell. Tell me your thoughts.

On a different note: so 66% of the law makers have to pass a law in order to change the tax system? So what? You would think that something could be done if it is the right thing to do. Hell, why not 90%? If it is the correct thing to do and your state is bleeding red, why is it so hard to fix it?

I started this thread because it reminds me that our Federal system is becoming extremely socialistic (communistic).

"A government that is large enough to give us everything, is large enough to take everything away" Thomas Jefferson


"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money [to spend]." Margaret Thatcher


and the most recent:
"The question we ask today is not whether our government is too big or too small, but whether it works" BHO