better think twice about those torrents

[c.nash]

Rather that get into that right here. Walls have eyes and shit. Know whatta mean Vern?

EFF THAT! Tell me! lol

[lxskllr]

And if they sell 300,000 records per year. Plus advances on the next record, plus commercial use of a hit song. It is all part of the pie, but it used to be that for a superstar the album sales were the biggest chunk. Incidentally $1 an album is a typical new artists rate. If you figure in the fact that they probably got an advance from the record company and have to pay a manager and what not, well if people don't buy that music it is unlikely that artist will ever get another shot than that first album. There are rare exceptions. The Doors for one, but they also switched labels.

Ken

And how much have the companies/artists made due to file sharing? You never hear about that. Here's a few numbers based on my sample size of 1(me), and derived from used sales(might as well pirate it), and albums friends have lent me...

Sigur Rós - 3 album sales, and 2 concert tickets
Brian Setzer Orchestra - 4 album sales and 2 concert tickets
Godspeed You! Black Emperor - 3 album sales directly, and about 6 others due to similar genre.
NIN - bought the Ghosts album after torrenting it(within my rights as it was released openly)
Big Lazy - 3 album sales
so on, and so on...

Everybody that downloads an album isn't a customer. It's not a 1:1 loss. Some will be a loss, and others will actually gain them customers. Single sales are where it's at, and the companies are doing fine. They're whining because people aren't buying CDs anymore, and I don't blame the people. Most of the music they listen to is utter shite, with even the "hit" single being garbage. Personally, I only buy albums because I listen to good music, but I'm in the minority.

Fact is, the record companies can't bend you over the barrel anymore, and they've been fighting it to the death. They've STOLEN so much money over the years, both from customers, and the artists that I don't have sympathy for them. They (especially Warner) continue to attack people, and violate their fair use rights knowing that most people don't have the cash to defend themselves.

That's only a small part of the ass raping that's going on. You want to talk about the Disney copyright extensions? Why is Micky Mouse still under copyright? Its been almost 100 years, and I'm certain it'll get extended again when it's threatened with going public domain. That's NOT why copyright was created. That's what it's turned into since our illustrious leaders are in the corporation's pockets, but that's not why it was created.

No, I don't have any sympathy for the companies. The power's in the hands of the people, where it belongs, and the people will pay what resource is worth.

[LincolnSnuff]

Personally, I only buy albums because I listen to good music, but I'm in the minority.

Everybody says that about their music. Whether music is good or not is entirely subjective.

[TheJanitor]

Some people here need to get down off that high horse they're on. What, you never drive even 1 MPH over the speed limit? Never took a phone call while driving? Never left your dog's shit on the ground? We all choose which laws are worth following, and which aren't, every day. Unless you own a record company or a movie studio you need to take the preaching elsewhere Dudley.

[devilock76]

And how much have the companies/artists made due to file sharing? You never hear about that. Here's a few numbers based on my sample size of 1(me), and derived from used sales(might as well pirate it), and albums friends have lent me...

Sigur Rós - 3 album sales, and 2 concert tickets
Brian Setzer Orchestra - 4 album sales and 2 concert tickets
Godspeed You! Black Emperor - 3 album sales directly, and about 6 others due to similar genre.
NIN - bought the Ghosts album after torrenting it(within my rights as it was released openly)
Big Lazy - 3 album sales
so on, and so on...

Everybody that downloads an album isn't a customer. It's not a 1:1 loss. Some will be a loss, and others will actually gain them customers. Single sales are where it's at, and the companies are doing fine. They're whining because people aren't buying CDs anymore, and I don't blame the people. Most of the music they listen to is utter shite, with even the "hit" single being garbage. Personally, I only buy albums because I listen to good music, but I'm in the minority.

Fact is, the record companies can't bend you over the barrel anymore, and they've been fighting it to the death. They've STOLEN so much money over the years, both from customers, and the artists that I don't have sympathy for them. They (especially Warner) continue to attack people, and violate their fair use rights knowing that most people don't have the cash to defend themselves.

That's only a small part of the ass raping that's going on. You want to talk about the Disney copyright extensions? Why is Micky Mouse still under copyright? Its been almost 100 years, and I'm certain it'll get extended again when it's threatened with going public domain. That's NOT why copyright was created. That's what it's turned into since our illustrious leaders are in the corporation's pockets, but that's not why it was created.

No, I don't have any sympathy for the companies. The power's in the hands of the people, where it belongs, and the people will pay what resource is worth.

Are you saying that if you hadn't procured their music from a free download you would never have bought the albums. Even if you could hear it on the radio or numerous other internet based legitimate streaming services?

There is a big difference between getting a free sample from some place at the mall from the person with a tray and walking into a place and pulling a dine and dash to see if you want to eat there again. As such there is a big difference between samples offered for free and illegally acquiring the product to see if you would pay for the product.

Ken

[devilock76]

Some people here need to get down off that high horse they're on. What, you never drive even 1 MPH over the speed limit? Never took a phone call while driving? Never left your dog's shit on the ground? We all choose which laws are worth following, and which aren't, every day. Unless you own a record company or a movie studio you need to take the preaching elsewhere Dudley.

This isn't about lecturing anybody on what they should do. But people are delusional if they think that such downloads are legal and if they think such downloads don't potentially hurt the artists they choose to download.

Ken

[lxskllr]

Are you saying that if you hadn't procured their music from a free download you would never have bought the albums. Even if you could hear it on the radio or numerous other internet based legitimate streaming services?

There is a big difference between getting a free sample from some place at the mall from the person with a tray and walking into a place and pulling a dine and dash to see if you want to eat there again. As such there is a big difference between samples offered for free and illegally acquiring the product to see if you would pay for the product.

Ken

That's exactly what I'm saying. Have you ever heard any of those artists on the radio? I'm pretty sure you don't even know who some of them are. Again, copyright infringement isn't stealing. If you dine and dash, the restaurant's out material goods for the food they supplied you. If I could collect a duplicate of a cheeseburger through wifi, and not a single cheeseburger left the restaurant, then yes, I'm fine with that. I'd reward the restaurant with my business, if their cheeseburgers were particularly good, and especially if they were independents, because I like to support independents.

[devilock76]

That's exactly what I'm saying. Have you ever heard any of those artists on the radio? I'm pretty sure you don't even know who some of them are. Again, copyright infringement isn't stealing. If you dine and dash, the restaurant's out material goods for the food they supplied you. If I could collect a duplicate of a cheeseburger through wifi, and not a single cheeseburger left the restaurant, then yes, I'm fine with that. I'd reward the restaurant with my business, if their cheeseburgers were particularly good, and especially if they were independents, because I like to support independents.

I think you missed my posts were I clearly defined why this is not copyright infringement it is theft. The two are very different things. I know another was calling it that but they were wrong as well.

You seem to like to consider material goods as something different from intellectual property. By the law unauthorized procurement of either is theft.

Ken

[lxskllr]

I think you missed my posts were I clearly defined why this is not copyright infringement it is theft. The two are very different things. I know another was calling it that but they were wrong as well.

I didn't miss them, merely disregarded them. I don't accept USA law to be ultimate arbiter of right, and wrong. In fact, much of USA(and all) law carries an agenda that has nothing to do with right and wrong. It's put in place to protect special interests, and many times disregards precedence set by more finely crafted laws, eg copyright length terms.

I always try to do what's right, and the laws of others don't factor into the equation.

[devilock76]

I didn't miss them, merely disregarded them. I don't accept USA law to be ultimate arbiter of right, and wrong. In fact, much of USA(and all) law carries an agenda that has nothing to do with right and wrong. It's put in place to protect special interests, and many times disregards precedence set by more finely crafted laws, eg copyright length terms.

I always try to do what's right, and the laws of others don't factor into the equation.

You do what you want, who the heck am I to tell you what to do. The only statement I am making is by the law it is stealing and that is all there is to it. And no it is not copyright infringement, that is a completely different animal.

I tell you this, by proxy you are saying if someone else decides to disregard the law because of some belief they have like say a higher authority then by all means they should, you know like say 9/11. Ok grotesque comparison, but then again...

Personally, I would like to see more legally acquirable free media. If it wasn't for DJ'ing on occasion there is little major label wise I would buy.

Ken

[lxskllr]

I tell you this, by proxy you are saying if someone else decides to disregard the law because of some belief they have like say a higher authority then by all means they should, you know like say 9/11. Ok grotesque comparison, but then again...

That's exactly what I'm saying. Law doesn't make right, and I encourage everyone to disregard laws that aren't right. This country was founded on treason, and disregarding laws, and we need to get some of the old spirit back.

[devilock76]

That's exactly what I'm saying. Law doesn't make right, and I encourage everyone to disregard laws that aren't right. This country was founded on treason, and disregarding laws, and we need to get some of the old spirit back.

Should someone ever decide to burn your house down as they feel laws against arson are unjust against pyromaniacs...

It is all hyperbole I know. I respect you for consistency though, that was not a slight either.

Ken

[simplesmoke]

Why would you compare arson to shoplifting? The reason copyright infringement is illegal is fundamentally because it is stealing. I'm sorry, but if you can't understand that then you have developed your views in response to your own instinct that what you are doing is wrong. Why else, do you propose, that copyright infringement is illegal? Why is it also called "piracy?" How is that for precise language?

It's like saying "Oh, I don't think molesting a 12 year old child is wrong because that's what I like to do, the government's numbers about the harms are fraudulent, it wasn't illegal 2000 years ago, and I will dismiss anyone who says otherwise without providing an iota of evidence." C'mon, you are just trying to justify what you are doing because you know it's wrong.


Name calling? Very mature. Why do you post something on a public forum about an illegal activity you are engaging in and then get upset when someone recommends, for your benefit, that you should stop? This is a harm-reduction forum FYI. As far as I know, they don't allow snus in any federal prisons which is where you could end up. Just trying to help here.

It really bugs me that they have gotten to the point that some people compare copying something as equal to walking into a store and stealing something off the shelves.

As others have said, It's not stealing.

Those videos that I have seen that is BS propaganda, before movies where they show kids stealing music in a store, then leaving.. to be a more accurate comparison should show the kids walking into Best Buy, pulling out some futuristic type matter copier and creating a clone of the item they want (from their own material) and then they put the original item back on the shelve before they leave with their identical copy.

You could go as far as saying that someone that humms a copyrighted song is "stealing" something and it would be even more wrong to enjoy listening to someone hum or sing a copyrighted work.

Copying anothers work (and improving on it at times) is what has brought man kind to where it is today. There are many shades of this, it is not black and white.

But it is not stealing a tangible good.

[simplesmoke]

And how much have the companies/artists made due to file sharing? You never hear about that. Here's a few numbers based on my sample size of 1(me), and derived from used sales(might as well pirate it), and albums friends have lent me...

No they don't talk about that aspect.

Piracy also equals free advertising.

Hell if I ever made an application or a song, I would upload it everywhere.

Bottom line you can't make someone buy something that would never had paid for it to begin with.

That is why only the "innocent" in all of this suffer.

While the average joe has to deal with 20 minutes of crap advertising on 95% of the DVD's and Blu-ray disks he has bought. All the pirates deal with none of that BS.

The users that deal with crappy DRM on the games they own, having to install/reinstall, patch etc.. the pirate does not, he just installs and plays.

The users that cannot return for a refund the crappy game/application they bought, while the pirate just deletes it and has no variation in blood pressure.

I think that is the more screwed up part of it. Those that want to do the right thing get the inconveniences.

[Mawdryn]

I just downloaded the entire show the Dead played at the Jai-Alai Fronton in Miami on the day I was born, completely free!

I get the sneaking suspicion that somewhere, somehow...Jerry smiled...