Wiki-Warning – Little Green Men Coming

[tom502]

I just don't believe the propaganda we have been fed is true.

I just finished writing a song called Neu Schwabenland, for my new Kosmokrater album called Wunderwaffen.

[sgreger1]

I just don't believe the propaganda we have been fed is true.

I just finished writing a song called Neu Schwabenland, for my new Kosmokrater album called Wunderwaffen.

Wunderwaffen? LOLLOOOLOLO. Is that like Wonderwall by Oasis but wearing novelty hitler staches?

[tom502]

Stop making fun of my art.

[sgreger1]

Stop making fun of my art.

I'm not making fun, just a funny german word. Post a link once you got some of your material on youtube. 3rd reich metal sounds like it would make for a good new genre! lol.

[devilock76]

Okay, I can see how germany's antics resulted in a world war that cost the lives of millions, but did also result in governments throwing massive amounts of cash into defense research, which innevitably led to the atom bomb, the space program, and many of the commercial goodies we enjoy here on the street. But America was also part of that war, and actually brought those programs to fruition (and paid for the whole thing), so technically the US holds and equal stake in all of those things you listed.

Well we can list many ingredients but often one needs to focus on the catalyst.

Ken

[devilock76]

I just don't believe the propaganda we have been fed is true.

I just finished writing a song called Neu Schwabenland, for my new Kosmokrater album called Wunderwaffen.

But you believe a TV show called ancient aliens? I am just astounded by what you are skeptical of on one hand yet completely accepting of on the other.

Ken

[sgreger1]

Well we can list many ingredients but often one needs to focus on the catalyst.

Ken

Well then we should focus on poverty, inflation, devalued currency, the ravages of WWI, racism etc. These were the catalysts to WWII, hitler was just what came out the other end when these catalysts were molded together.

[devilock76]

Well then we should focus on poverty, inflation, devalued currency, the ravages of WWI, racism etc. These were the catalysts to WWII, hitler was just what came out the other end when these catalysts were molded together.

An act of God?

Ken

[Darwin]

That's certainly true sgreger but it is also true that what contributed most to the two world wars and three overarching dictatorships was---everything. Countless historical events, conditions, ideas, etc. etc. almost literally ad infinitum "contributed" to the converging swirl of nationalism, radicalism, and despotism that spawned the two world wars, and to try to assign even a vague direct causality to any of them merely moves the "problem" further back in time. The two world wars and the Russian, German, and Chinese dictatorships are the results of the entire history of humanity, one event/cause building on the next for thousands of years, and so in reality there was not some subset of easily identifiable causes for these phenomena but literally billions of them across at least ten thousand years.

Ironically that same vast universe of causality spawned the industrialized republics that opposed those dictatorships. The old shibboleth "Those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it." may be a truism but it can also be a trap. The trap springs when we purport to exhibit an understanding neutral "culturally sensitive" view of actions taken in light of and revenge for ancient centuries old oppressions. It is always an excuse for oppression, mayhem, and slaughter but it is virtually never a rational reason for such actions. No better example exists today than the toxic tribalism of the middle-east where sufferings of the millennia before last are in memory yet green but few if any societies are immune to the lure of antiquated prejudice. When does the statute of limitations run out on what someone did to someone else in the year -3200 BCE? Never apparently. Who/what caused Hitler? Simple: Everything/Everybody. Getting a whole bunch more specific than that merely admits entry to an endless hall of mirrors that ultimately reflect only ourselves. Depressing ain't it but many chunks of the human social network have at least tried to move past all this and the aggregate body of western law and jurisprudence is clear evidence of it. Bugger what happened in the year 1133 and concentrate on what happened this friggin' week sez I.

[sgreger1]

That's certainly true sgreger but it is also true that what contributed most to the two world wars and three overarching dictatorships was---everything. Countless historical events, conditions, ideas, etc. etc. almost literally ad infinitum "contributed" to the converging swirl of nationalism, radicalism, and despotism that spawned the two world wars, and to try to assign even a vague direct causality to any of them merely moves the "problem" further back in time. The two world wars and the Russian, German, and Chinese dictatorships are the results of the entire history of humanity, one event/cause building on the next for thousands of years, and so in reality there was not some subset of easily identifiable causes for these phenomena but literally billions of them across at least ten thousand years.

Ironically that same vast universe of causality spawned the industrialized republics that opposed those dictatorships. The old shibboleth "Those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it." may be a truism but it can also be a trap. The trap springs when we purport to exhibit an understanding neutral "culturally sensitive" view of actions taken in light of and revenge for ancient centuries old oppressions. It is always an excuse for oppression, mayhem, and slaughter but it is virtually never a rational reason for such actions. No better example exists today than the toxic tribalism of the middle-east where sufferings of the millennia before last are in memory yet green but few if any societies are immune to the lure of antiquated prejudice. When does the statute of limitations run out on what someone did to someone else in the year -3200 BCE? Never apparently. Who/what caused Hitler? Simple: Everything/Everybody. Getting a whole bunch more specific than that merely admits entry to an endless hall of mirrors that ultimately reflect only ourselves. Depressing ain't it but many chunks of the human social network have at least tried to move past all this and the aggregate body of western law and jurisprudence is clear evidence of it. Bugger what happened in the year 1133 and concentrate on what happened this friggin' week sez I.

Darwin, not sure if you were reading all the comments, but that was the exact point I was tryint o make. It's not fair to say hitler built the modern world or that hitler's regime is the reason for all of our cool technology as tom proposed or as devilock76 is playing devil's advocate to.

I was saying that everything went into the making of WWII, so any outcomes can be blamed on everything. All those little conditions that made for the perfect storm which resulted in WWII is what "built the modern world", not hitler. Saying it was just hitler isn't fair since it was NOT just hitler. I am tired of hearing how Hitler somehow made the world a better place. He had a good science team, big whoop. That has nothing to do with hitler, and more to do with the german people and education. If they are good at science it's not because of hitler.


And if Germany was the scientific powerhouse that Tom believes it was, capable of interstellar travel etc, than why did they lose so freaking badly?

[Darwin]

Point taken sgreger and the point about the Germans being a "scientific powerhouse" is especially taken. Oh yeah they were real smart. Smart enough to run off the cream of their nuclear science researchers. Smart enough to devote billions in marks and millions of man hours perfecting useless tactical missile technology and one absurd unworkable "superweapon" after the other. Smart enough to entertain the idea of invading Britain which would have resulted in a spectacular slaughter by the British navy. Smart enough to invade the Soviet Union thereby ensuring the destruction of the Wehrmacht to the tune of 60 divisions--more than all the other theaters combined. Smart enough to declare war on the U.S. in the first place. So on and so forth. It's true that these blunders were policy decisions by the Nutter-in-Chief but it is clear that no prodigies of scientific prowess would have been sufficient to hold back the eventual Allied tide.

Perhaps Hitler's biggest blunder was invading the Soviet Union because if he had not it would have been wildly more difficult to dislodge him from "Fortress Europe" by conventional force of arms. On the equally unpleasant other hand without the Russian campaign grinding the majority of the Wehrmacht into a fine puree it's likely that D-Day would might have never happened and that the war in Europe would have only been concluded in the same way that the Pacific war was--with searing nuclear flashes. Not sure the German people would have counted that as much of an improvement over what actually happened.

The Germans at best were able to thinly field technology that was at most one or two years in advance of the Allies and in no wise whatsoever, period, did they ever under any circumstance possess technology several hundred years in advance of them which is what would have been required for interstellar technology. Hell that is barely even a gleam in the eye of the most fanciful futurists even now when we are not yet in possession of the faintest glimmers of the beginnings of the technology needed for such a stupendous technological achievement. Humans, German or otherwise, doing such a thing in the mid-forties? Ludicrous is far too mild a word.

[tom502]

Hitler made many tactical mistakes which resulted in the defeat of germany. But sometimes I wonder. Yes, Germany fell, but did "they" really lose? It seems countries do things that seem so stupid, but often there is a secret game going on in the backroom that the populace and media are not privy to. The way this wacky world is, and the so many things beyond our comprehension, I remain open to anything as a possibility.

[sgreger1]

Hitler made many tactical mistakes which resulted in the defeat of germany. But sometimes I wonder. Yes, Germany fell, but did "they" really lose? It seems countries do things that seem so stupid, but often there is a secret game going on in the backroom that the populace and media are not privy to. The way this wacky world is, and the so many things beyond our comprehension, I remain open to anything as a possibility.

How did they note "lose"? Their officers were put on trial for war crimes, executed, their fuhrer died, they accepted defeat. Even the germans admit to "losing" the war, and yet you still don't believe it?




Another odd thing. I wonder how germans feel about the whole nazi thing. Here in the US, we are still beat up every day for having slavery in the past (over 100 years ago), let the nazis were like this last generation. Do the german people feel bad about the whole hitler thing, or is it something that's not really talked of?

[devilock76]

Darwin, not sure if you were reading all the comments, but that was the exact point I was tryint o make. It's not fair to say hitler built the modern world or that hitler's regime is the reason for all of our cool technology as tom proposed or as devilock76 is playing devil's advocate to.

I was saying that everything went into the making of WWII, so any outcomes can be blamed on everything. All those little conditions that made for the perfect storm which resulted in WWII is what "built the modern world", not hitler. Saying it was just hitler isn't fair since it was NOT just hitler. I am tired of hearing how Hitler somehow made the world a better place. He had a good science team, big whoop. That has nothing to do with hitler, and more to do with the german people and education. If they are good at science it's not because of hitler.


And if Germany was the scientific powerhouse that Tom believes it was, capable of interstellar travel etc, than why did they lose so freaking badly?

Please note, I am not saying they built the modern world, but there are many things that have happened to become the modern world that can easily be correlated to the events and results of WWII.

Ken

[devilock76]

How did they note "lose"? Their officers were put on trial for war crimes, executed, their fuhrer died, they accepted defeat. Even the germans admit to "losing" the war, and yet you still don't believe it?




Another odd thing. I wonder how germans feel about the whole nazi thing. Here in the US, we are still beat up every day for having slavery in the past (over 100 years ago), let the nazis were like this last generation. Do the german people feel bad about the whole hitler thing, or is it something that's not really talked of?

By 1939 there were maybe 200,000 Jews in Germany, of that 200,000 it is estimated 90% died in the holocaust. Prior to that most had fled. After the war for the most part most of the Jews who had fled did not return. The Jewish population in Germany did not really start to grow again until after the cold war and reunification of Germany. Today the population is again about 200,000 so they basically just got back to their pre-holocaust statistics. However in the case of our own Civil War despite the slaves being freed and the south losing the war they faced another 100 years of segregation policies and of course there is the economic prison system that still continues (this is a matter of opinion to some so I won't touch it, just saying).

There is another significant difference though. First of all most people, just looking at a person, really can't tell if a person is Jewish or not, or was a nazi or not. However the difference between black and white is much more stark. Additionally I would imagine most Jews are doing as well financially and socially in the modern world as their gentile peers. The same feeling would not be shared by many blacks in this country. Whatever the reasoning, I think we can agree that they would have that sentiment. Trying to avoid why discussions that turn more into speculation and opinion.

Ken