Toque Snuff notes usps will not mail snuff

[tom502]

At snuffhouse, Toque Snuff posted info that the USPS will not mail his snuff in the US, and is unsure how to continue on.

Personally, I think the former US snuff sellers should have stayed in the US, got the snuff makers to get FDA ok, and just continued on like the new getsnus.

In Larry Waters recent article about Skruf, it states that unless Skruf gets the FDA OK, then it will not be allowed to be sold to the US.

If these snuffs do not get FDA ok, then will they?

[Liandri]

Now thats a damn shame. Seemed like such a nice fellow.

[bipolarbear1968]

""The good thing is if we mark our packets as “gifts”, it’s us they have to chase and not our customers."" -Roderick Comment #8.
http://snuffhouse.org/discussion/376...Comment_115433.

Really! I'd hate to hear of a FDA personal arrested for tresspassing.

.................Read between line ......................

[justintempler]

FDA - The way to fix this is for Toque to submit his ingredient lists to get his product OK'd for sale in the US.
PACT - Then let Northerner act as the importer here in the states. Northerner will be set up to collect and pay the required taxes.

[Bigblue1]

FDA - The way to fix this is for Toque to submit his ingredient lists to get his product OK'd for sale in the US.
PACT - Then let Northerner act as the importer here in the states. Northerner will be set up to collect and pay the required taxes.

Yeah and if he did, it'd be the only snuff registered with the FDA, besides Poschl, in the US. That would make his snuff the best and easiest to get period

[tom502]

Well, if you follow the current thread at snuffhouse, they believe, and I hope they are right, that imported to the US snuff does not have to meet any FDA requirements. But, to me, if this is true, why are the snus companies getting FDA ok, and why open a US shop, when all you'd have to do is remain a foreign(to the US) shop, and sell and send whatever?

[Bigblue1]

Well, if you follow the current thread at snuffhouse, they believe, and I hope they are right, that imported to the US snuff does not have to meet any FDA requirements. But, to me, if this is true, why are the snus companies getting FDA ok, and why open a US shop, when all you'd have to do is remain a foreign(to the US) shop, and sell and send whatever?

I think it's wishful thinking. I hope I'm wrong too. But apparently Rodericks rattled after reading more about the post office. Wait till he feels the wrath of a regulating agency here in the good ol US

[tom502]

I did PM Roderick earlier, suggesting what others have since said, that he should get his snuffs FDA OK'd, and sell them from the new getsnus site. He'd be the exclusive legal snuff, unless Poschl is too, which is good too.

[Snusdog]

Well, if you follow the current thread at snuffhouse, they believe, and I hope they are right, that imported to the US snuff does not have to meet any FDA requirements. But, to me, if this is true, why are the snus companies getting FDA ok, and why open a US shop, when all you'd have to do is remain a foreign(to the US) shop, and sell and send whatever?

I think this is in part where the confusion comes in. We need to keep our terms straight. Snuff imported to the USA will be required to register with the FDA. What is not stated anywhere in the law is that snuff or snun exported to an individual consumer for personal consumption will be required to be FDA compliant only that it will not be permissible to ship said products via the USPS.

Here is the law itself:
(I have included comments in brackets below each section)

Section 904(a)(4) of the act requires each tobacco product manufacturer or importer, or agent thereof, to submit all documents developed after June 22, 2009 “that relate to health, toxicological, behavioral, or physiologic effects of current or future tobacco products, their constituents (including smoke constituents), ingredients, components, and additives.” Information required under section 904(a)(4) must be submitted to FDA beginning December 22, 2009.

{Note the law intends and refers to only US based entities. The very fact that importers are named while exporters are excluded precisely identifies the scope of the law. First, USA exports are already compliant via the regulations on USA manufacturers (who are making the products to be exported) and therefore need not be named. Second, the USA has no jurisdiction over foreign makers or exporters. Thus, again they are not named. However, the FDA does have jurisdiction over US manufacturers and US companies who import foreign products for resale in the USA and thus it is there that the Law seeks its point of regulation and enforcement}


The failure to provide any information required by sections 904 is a prohibited act under section 301(q)(1)(B) of the act (21 U.S.C. § 331(q)(1)(B)). In addition, under section 903(a)(10) of the act, tobacco products are deemed misbranded for a “failure or refusal . . . to comply with any requirement prescribed under section 904 . . . .” 21 U.S.C. § 387c(a)(10). Violations relating to section 904(a)(4) are subject to regulatory and enforcement action by FDA, including seizure and injunction.

{Again the law assumes only US based entities. The FDA has no such international jurisdiction}

Tobacco Product Manufacturer: The term “tobacco product manufacturer” means “any person, including any repacker or relabeler, who (A) manufactures, fabricates, assembles, processes, or labels a tobacco product; or (B) imports a finished tobacco product for sale or distribution in the United States” (section 900(20) of the act (21 U.S.C. § 387(20)). Thus, the term is not limited to persons who manufacture products containing tobacco, but includes anyone who manufactures any tobacco product as defined above.

{The money quote that confirms our reading thus far}

FDA intends to focus enforcement of the tobacco health document submission requirements on the manufacturers and importers of cigarettes, smokeless tobacco, and roll-your-own tobacco for consumer use as well as manufacturers and importers of tobacco, filters, papers, or pouches, whether such products are for further manufacturing or for consumer use, because these comprise the principal components of most tobacco products sold to consumers. If the agency finds that additional information is needed to protect the public health, the agency may reconsider these compliance policies. We intend to communicate any such compliance policy changes by guidance or rulemaking.

For tobacco products that are or will be imported, the required health documents are to be submitted by either the foreign manufacturer or the importer. The foreign manufacturer and the importer or importers of an imported product will need to work together to ensure that the health documents are submitted to FDA as required by section 904(a)(4).

{Again remember the definition section above. Importer means “(B) imports a finished tobacco product for sale or distribution in the United States”}



.

There is nothing in this law that even remotely addresses the issue at hand. If Roderick wants to sell snuff through get snus then he will need to comply. Otherwise this law does not address his area of business


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[spirit72]

If the USPS insists on being childish, let them. Use UPS, or FedEx, or whoever else can/will handle it. It will be more expensive, and if all or part of that expense needs to be passed on to the customer, then so be it. Sometimes, life sucks.

Seeing as the USPS is damned near broke, I would think they'd be tripping over their own feet to find a way around this. But they aren't, and so they deserve to go belly up. Hope they do.

[GoVegan]

I hope they find a way around this but did they really think they could get around PACT merely by moving out of the country? All you have to do is look around a bit to see that probably won't work. Why would companies like Northerner spend large sums of money flying across the Atlantic to set up warehouses when all they would have to do is stay in Sweden and continue shipping snus like they normally do? Between warehouses, transportation, consulting fees and bribes errr I mean government permits it probably costs at least 6 if not 7 figures to set up shop here and distribute tobacco all over the United States.

[Snusdog]

I hope they find a way around this but did they really think they could get around PACT merely by moving out of the country? All you have to do is look around a bit to see that probably won't work. Why would companies like Northerner spend large sums of money flying across the Atlantic to set up warehouses when all they would have to do is stay in Sweden and continue shipping snus like they normally do? Between warehouses, transportation, consulting fees and bribes errr I mean government permits it probably costs at least 6 if not 7 figures to set up shop here and distribute tobacco all over the United States.

One word Vegan

Distributorship


Northerner is in all likelihood setting itself up to be the US distributor for someone or someone(s)

[f. bandersnatch]

First of all, yes, I think that moving out of the country should make one exempt from a law of said country. Secondly, the Northerner set up a warehouse and a US based website because it puts them in a position to become the preeminent supplier of snus to us fine folks on this side of the world, it was a plan that was in effect long before PACT.

[tom502]

Well, it will be interesting to see how it all pans out.

[Toque Snuff]

I want Snusdog as our lawyer. Well done Snusdog this is exactly why we are not rushing things and want to wait and see which way the wind blows. Behind the scenes we are wheedling away getting everything in place for a rapid response to any changing wind.