The Ron Paul Thread!

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  • alex
    Member
    • Jul 2007
    • 226

    The Ron Paul Thread!

    Seeing as there is plenty of Ron Paul discussion bleeding into threads were it may not neccissarily belong, I gave him his own thread on our little forum!

    I actually heard about Ron from Craig de Terring's avatar and sig here on SnusOn, after watching some videos and listening to some speeches, I am sold!

    This post is really just to get the discussion rolling, so here goes :

    Ron has run in the past as libertarian, which he is probably most suited as seeing his views - but - he is fundamentally republican.

    I think his choice to run republican was partly an act of protest in and of itself. He is the only Republican candidate that, like a true conservative should be standing for, does not want to spend any more money!

    Do I think he will make the ballot? no
    Will I vote for him as a write in? yes - and I have never been compelled to vote since I was of age.

    (another thought : constitutionalist - I don't even know where to begin :P It appeals to me in more ways than I can count)
  • Coffey
    Member
    • Feb 2007
    • 150

    #2
    First off, good topic. Second, I was a life long Republican up till about 2 years ago. What changed me was watching these so called Republicans in the house and senate spend money like the Democrats they so vilified. It was at this point I had a revelation: there is no difference between the two. Ron Paul, on the other hand, stands for all the things I grew up beliving the Republicans stood for. Less government in our lives, taxes used for our security and not a bunch of do nothing social programs instituted 70 years ago, the ideal of live and let live, the Constitution, and many others. Ever since the Neo-con movement, the Republicans have not been the same. I think Lewis Black said it best: "What's the difference between a Republican and a Democrat? Well a Democrat sucks, and a Republican blows!" If you have persevered through this rant, I congratulate you, and thank you for your time.

    Comment

    • KentuckySnusser
      Member
      • May 2007
      • 109

      #3
      I'm a moderate Democrat (moderate Republican before the neocons and evangelicals took over the party) and I was very impressed with Dr. Paul's sparring match with Governor Huckabee. I sent him $50 and wish him, his campaign and indeed my country the very best.

      http://youtube.com/watch?v=GvTvt1UO_QI

      Comment

      • llewelynt
        Member
        • May 2007
        • 61

        #4
        I'm just going to make one post in this thread. It isn't nice, but you'll find I am much nicer when we talk about snus. That's why we're here, eh?

        I am a lifelong independent as far as US elections go. In the UK, I have supported Plaid Cymru, the Lib Dems, and the Labour party.

        "Not every Conservative is stupid, but most stupid people are Conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

        I will not vote for Ron Paul. He won't make the general, so that choice is made for all of us. But most importantly, he is yet another Conservative, another Republican. I have no use for those politicians who support the free-market fairy tale.

        My political philosophy runs to socialism, with a small 's'. I will vote for the candidate who is most likely to fund the social and security (at home) programs the US needs. That is likely to be a Democrat. My aim in this election cycle is to help those opposed to DLCers like Hillary Clinton. For the UK folks, the DLC is "New Labour".

        I've been working on a book that could be compared to a 21st century "Leviathan" (Hobbes). If we're still talking politics when it comes out, I'll let you know where to find it.

        Oh, and, God Save the Queen. (Even though I'm an atheist)

        Comment

        • Zero
          Member
          • May 2006
          • 1522

          #5
          How do you even know what the free market would be like? It's never been around in your lifetime (or mine!). Ironically, as a traditional socialist, you're probably not aware that the worst of corporate America has been put into place by the same governments that push socialism. Even the neocons now are pushing big spending and socialist policies - why?

          Social programs concentrate money into the pockets of the government - it means they need more money to run everything they want to do so they need to be taking in more money. This heavily concentrates the power they have and soon they are overrun by lobbyist who all want to get in on some reciprocal backscratching. Special contracts, special rules, overlooked transgressions, tax loopholes - general crookery and corruption are the game of modern day politicians. They say whatever bullshit to get elected and then run the thing like their own playground, pacifying people, socialists and capitalists alike, with dazzling press conferences and lies.

          Look around you. Do you think Hilary is going to make the US better? Her husband should speak volumes for what her policies will be like. (Covert weapons deals, secret massacres, starting wars in the Balkans, sucking big pharma's viagra-erected dick, etc...) She's part of the same gang of crooks - democrats and republicans. They play a secret game with each other where they both know they can stay in power if they just pretend to be enemies.

          I used to be a socialist too. In some ways I still am, but my concept of what "helping people" is has totally changed. Giving them barely enough to survive in the form of money which will provide for their basic needs is not the way forward. I wouldn't even say it's compassionate - especially when one is pursuing other policies determined to keep more and more people at the bottom.

          Everyone has this idea that what is going on in the US right now is an example of what free markets produce. But that's like saying the US is a democracy right now - it's about as democratic as its markets are free (which isn't very much). Government supports some corporations more than others (ones which pay their campaign bills) and those corporations are the ones which develop the power, so symbolic of what is "bad" about "capitalism". But true free markets are a great equaliser - even more so, I would say, than welfare. Look what happened with telecoms - there were the big monopolies, put in place by governments (By several names in Canada, AT&T/Bell in the US, BT in the UK, etc), and as soon as the same governments who insisted on those monopolies shut them down (or rather, left them running but "freed" the market), the market boomed with diversity and competition and choice. Prices went down, enthusiasm went up, and more got done.

          But the most overriding reason to pick Ron Paul should be (I think) obvious to any human being, although we may have just stopped thinking of politicians in such ways. That is that he tells the truth - he tells it like it is. When is the last time you have seen a politician in any country, especially the US, do that? No bullshit, no crowd rallying, no vapid and nebulous talking points, no lies or deception, sly looks or creepy feelings. Just a totally honest guy who is sick of corruption and wants to sort it out. The man has never even taken a pay rise - not voted for them and not taken them when the rest of congress decided they wanted one. Everyone complains that politicians are some breed of non-human that the public can't relate to, well here's Ron Paul - a genuine, normal human being.

          He's completely non-radical. He won't do anything without Congressional approval and is willing to listen to the public throughout his term, not simply consider them a gang of unwashed whom one must interrupt their hegemonistic quest every four years to pander to with flashy signs and free drinks. At his core, Ron Paul cares about people. I don't see ONE single other US candidate in either party who has convinced me of that. They are transparent.

          I would bet you that 99% of people who identify themselves as socialist are people who simply care about people. I won't speak for you, but for myself the idea of socialism was appealing because it seemed to care about people. But when one really starts to look at the crux of the policies supported by socialists, although deceptively generous on the surface, they don't quite live up to their intentions in practice. Personally, I'd rather vote for a guy who cares about people, regardless of how they identify their political positions.

          ...and if you think Ron Paul has't got a chance, you're in for a big suprise. He's either won or placed in the top-tier of all the polls which couldn't have been (or weren't) rigged. Fox says "Paulites" were "dialling and redialling" their text message polls, but anyone who tried it knows that one phone with one number could only make one vote. Unless Ron paul supporters have ten phones with ten sim cards each, he got a third of all votes for ten candidates - TWICE!

          The only thing that bugs me is that I can't send the guy money... at least not legally, and I can't help but feel that it would be hypocritical to interfere in another country's election (with power of money or military) when I actively deplore the practice myself. I can say what I like though (the great freedom of speech), and that's just my opinion.

          Comment

          • Subtilo
            Member
            • Dec 2006
            • 524

            #6
            ^

            Comment

            • Coffey
              Member
              • Feb 2007
              • 150

              #7
              Right on Zero! Like you, I would never question a socialist reasons, because as you said, more than likely they are interested in helping people. What I do question, however, are the intentions of a socialist government. It is just like any other political party, most of the individual people in the party have good intentions, but the party leaders, more often than not, have ulterior motives.

              Comment

              • llewelynt
                Member
                • May 2007
                • 61

                #8
                Just quickly here, as I don't want to be too involved with politics on the snus list:

                Originally posted by Zero
                How do you even know what the free market would be like? It's never been around in your lifetime (or mine!).
                That's the point. When we hear politicians who talk about libertarian 'values', we are usually talking about free thought and free markets. Neither of which, actually, exist.

                Originally posted by Zero
                Ironically, as a traditional socialist, you're probably not aware that the worst of corporate America has been put into place by the same governments that push socialism.
                I'm hardly traditional, and you and I probably disagree on the term if you think there have been socialist gov'ts in the US. I do agree that social policies have been mishandled by most gov'ts.

                Originally posted by Zero
                Special contracts, special rules, overlooked transgressions, tax loopholes - general crookery and corruption are the game of modern day politicians.
                True no matter what the form of gov't. You're fooling yourself if you think a Paul presidency would be different.

                Originally posted by Zero
                Do you think Hilary is going to make the US better?
                No, and I thought I made that clear in the post. I will be working against her. She is polling high, but my money is against her at the moment. Wait until the primaries.

                Originally posted by Zero
                In some ways I still am, but my concept of what "helping people" is has totally changed.
                For me, "helping people" is one part, not the whole picture. Careful, Zero, you're reading into what I've said.

                Originally posted by Zero
                ...and if you think Ron Paul has't got a chance, you're in for a big suprise.
                If you think he does, you're in for a disappointment. Freeping polls is one thing. Actually winning a nomination is another. I'll send you a log of snus if he makes the general election. Wanna send me one if he doesn't?

                Generally, I have agreed with your political views on the list. We part ways on support of any conservative.

                I'm pleased that people outside the US take such an interest in US politics. Other Americans here may disagree. Root for your guy. I think you may have a skewed view of politics here if you think he has any chance at all.

                More than likely, Ron Paul will be the Republican Ralph Nader. I'm fine with that. :lol:

                Comment

                • Stargazer
                  Member
                  • Aug 2007
                  • 225

                  #9
                  it's strange how government is failing in the US.
                  When it's a great success in Scandinavia.
                  Low unemployment, stable and strong economy, a low gap between
                  rich and poor. It's not perfect, but no system of government is.

                  the free marked has it's place in society, but not everywhere.

                  But the fact that the American economy needs a big reformation is no secret.
                  How that should be done, I have no expertise to comment.

                  Comment

                  • Zero
                    Member
                    • May 2006
                    • 1522

                    #10
                    Originally posted by llewelynt
                    etc...
                    Fair enough - I'll give you that Gravel and Kucinich seem like decent lads with good hearts, though I may disagree with some of their policy. A Paul/Kucinich race for '08 would be gold enough for me.

                    I'll send you a log of snus if he makes the general election. Wanna send me one if he doesn't?
                    :lol: If I had confidence that the Republican primary vote would happen fairly, I'd take you up on that in a heartbeat. In fact, I may do so anyways, what the hell! I'll take a roll of Grov lös, what's your fancy?

                    Comment

                    • llewelynt
                      Member
                      • May 2007
                      • 61

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Zero
                      Fair enough - I'll give you that Gravel and Kucinich seem like decent lads with good hearts, though I may disagree with some of their policy. A Paul/Kucinich race for '08 would be gold enough for me.
                      Gravel and Kucinich are allright, but have similar 'unelectable' problems. I am not certain who is the best candidate (they all are awful). I expect to make a choice by the California primary.

                      In fact, I may do so anyways, what the hell! I'll take a roll of Grov lös, what's your fancy?
                      Grovsnus White Portion. But I feel it is unfair to you; we all know that Paul, whatever his merits, cannot win in the current system.

                      Yes, the American political system and the gov't are 'broken'. It doesn't matter what 'expertise' we have, the fix is neither easy nor readily apparent. I would say the entire US model is broken. Separation of powers, for example, is a lie.

                      Perhaps there will be a thread someday to talk about pinheads like Harper? Does anyone hold much hope for Brown? I keep our more civilised neighbour to the north in my thoughts, as well as the Old Home across the pond.

                      So I'm not doing a good job of staying out of this. Ah well.

                      Comment

                      • Zero
                        Member
                        • May 2006
                        • 1522

                        #12
                        Yes, the American political system and the gov't are 'broken'. It doesn't matter what 'expertise' we have, the fix is neither easy nor readily apparent. I would say the entire US model is broken. Separation of powers, for example, is a lie.
                        This is the appeal of Ron Paul. He's the only guy who has come out and said this. Further, he's the only guy who has seriously proposed scrapping huge parts of the government and fixing the monetary system. That's a pretty good start to tackling a problem of rampant, metastasised corruption.

                        Perhaps there will be a thread someday to talk about pinheads like Harper?
                        Don't get me started. I've been in contact with a number of MPs in Canada, particularly about the SPP, but that's another story. I'm seriously considering getting into politics when I get back and trying to sort things out.

                        Comment

                        • llewelynt
                          Member
                          • May 2007
                          • 61

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Zero
                          Don't get me started. I've been in contact with a number of MPs in Canada, particularly about the SPP, but that's another story. I'm seriously considering getting into politics when I get back and trying to sort things out.
                          Do take action when you get back home. I can't help but think that thoughtful people taking part is the only thing that can cause change.

                          SPP is the Security and Prosperity Partnership? I'd love to hear your views. However, this is a snus forum, and it would the wrong place to continue.

                          Comment

                          • Zero
                            Member
                            • May 2006
                            • 1522

                            #14
                            Meh, this is a general discussion thread, I don't see why it shouldn't be here. It's not like we're posting in "snus and snus accessories" here. I may save the SPP rant for another day, but it's a load of terrible corruption. :?

                            Comment

                            • KentuckySnusser
                              Member
                              • May 2007
                              • 109

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Zero
                              Meh, this is a general discussion thread, I don't see why it shouldn't be here. It's not like we're posting in "snus and snus accessories" here. I may save the SPP rant for another day, but it's a load of terrible corruption. :?
                              All said, I feel you should both be commended for discussing politics in the rational and considerate manner which you have displayed. It's not often that cooler heads prevail on these sorts of discussions on an internet forum. Cheers!

                              Comment

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