This is bulls*it!!!!!

[Premium Parrots]

I wonder how Hitler would feel about this?




just sayin





Burn Blunts Not The Bible or The Koran



good thread.

[sgreger1]

We need some perspective here. We are talking about what happened in Afghanistan, not bibles being burned in the USA and how the Amish would react (??). While I'm not at all in support of the Afghan response, let us not forget who we are dealing with. Afghans, simply put, have nothing left but their traditions, tribal allegiances, and Islam. They are an occupied country, and after 10 years of the occupiers "murdering" (as it is perceived) and accomplishing nothing (as it is perceived), now they (we) are insulting their deeply-seeded religion, which is all that some feel they have left to grasp on to. Given this scenario, is it any surprise that it takes little to push these folks over the edge?

It is clear as day that people in Afghanistan will respond this way to the smallest of provocations, and that will never change. Just one more reason to GTFO.

This is absolutely true, but still is not an excuse for their behaviour. We can't write off their constant rioting, murdering flash mobs etc as a "cultural thing", that shit is unacceptable. In the US if a bible is burned people will grumble about it at church, no one is going to go out in a mob of 1,000 people and go break into military bases, storm government buildings, kill people, or burn down every mosque within walking distance etc.

[sgreger1]

If anybody knows an ounce about modern soldiering, burning the Koran was an idiotic, insensitive and cringeworthy thing to do. Operationally, this kind of stupidity can take years off any progress gained.

On the other hand, killing people because of it is equally idiotic.

Yah you would get in mad trouble if you got caught doing that regardless of what unit you were in. On a local level everyone giggles about "**** muslims" etc but as far as the unit is concerned shit like this is a PR nightmare. It was just two stupid guys being stupid, nothing to riot or kill over. Like I said, discipline them and be done with it, no need to have the ****ing president apologize and make a whole media spectacle out of it.

You're worrying about the policy side of it, i.e. that it's not advantageous to the mission etc. This wasn't a department-wide policy or something stating that soldiers should burn Korans, this was two guys who burned some Korans. It is about two idiots, and has nothing to do with the actual army or their strategy (other than that these guys aren't helping us "win the hearts and minds of the people", but that is always a secondary objective).

[sgreger1]

Some Muslims burn the American flag as do some people in central and south America as well as people in other parts of the world, but no Muslims will ever burn the Bible.Muslims (and yes I happen to be one, maybe not a very good one but a Muslim nevertheless) respect the Bible and we respect and love Jesus and believe him to be a Prophet/messenger of God just as we believe Abraham,Moses etc were also messengers of God.

So your assertion that Muslims burn bibles is a false one.

I could say a lot more about the whole situation in the world today but I wont, I come here to talk about snus not religion or world politics so Ill leave it at that.

Good day

Naswari, first of all I would like to preface my comments with the fact that I don't have anything against Muslims personally, just like I don't have anything against Christians personally. I do have a problem with religion as a whole but I understand that honest, good people who are religious are still honest, good people.

That being said, I have to call absolute BS on your claim. I am familiar with how Jesus/Mary is seen as a holy figure to Muslims and therefore the Bible is also sacred and not to be burned, but like everything else in religion the rules are malleable and easily broken.

For example, Muslims burn bibles all the time. Here are my sources:

"Christians in Gaza Fear for Their Lives as Muslims Burn Bibles and Destroy Crosses". In this one "the Muslim gunmen used rocket-propeled grenades (RPGs) to blow through the doors of the church and school, before burning Bibles and destroying every cross they could get their hands on.". Contrary to my previous comment however, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas condemned the attack as "barbaric and despicable", so not quite an apology but I think that counts good enough as one in my book.


Four men were caught Tuesday evening while burning the Bible, calendars depicting Jesus Christ and other Christian booklets, reports the Pakistan-based Daily Times.




The list goes on:

•2005: Saudi Arabia Desecrates Hundreds of Bibles Annually

25 May 2005, Saudi Arabia Desecrates Hundreds of Bibles AnnuallyWashington DC - The Saudi government burns and desecrates hundreds of bibles its security forces confiscate after raids on Christian expatriates worshiping privately or at border crossings.

As a matter of official policy, the government either incinerates or dumps bibles, crosses and other Christian paraphernalia.

Hundreds of Christian worshipers are arrested every year by Saudi police in raids on their private gatherings. Bibles, crosses and printed materials are confiscated and later burnt or dumped into trash. Bibles and other Christian paraphernalia found with travelers into the country are confiscated and destroyed.

Although considered as holy in Islam and mentioned in the Koran dozens of times, the Bible is banned in Saudi Arabia, and is confiscated and destroyed by government officials.

Recently, there has been a crackdown on symbols of Christianity in Saudi Arabia. On April 21st Saudi authorities raided a make-shift church in Riyadh and arrested 40 Christians. Many Christian religious symbols, such as crucifixes and bibles were later destroyed by Saudi security forces.

•2006: Muslim students urinate, spit on, then burn Bible

10 Dec 2006, Muslim Students Urinate, Spit On Then Burn Bible
TWO Muslim students have been expelled from an Islamic school in Melbourne for urinating and spitting on a Bible and setting it on fire.
The explosive incident has forced the East Preston Islamic College to call in a senior imam to tell its 650 Muslim students that the Bible and Christianity must be respected.

Anxious teachers at the school have also petitioned principal Shaheem Doutie, expressing "grave concern" about an "inculcation of hatred and radical attitudes towards non-Muslims" at the school, including towards non-Muslim teachers.
...

"The main perpetrator (a Year 7 student) urinated on the Holy Bible, tore some pages from the Holy Book and burnt them then finally spat on the Holy Book," the report says.

The second boy, from Year 9, "tore pages from the Holy Book and burnt them", while a third student, from Year 7, "tore pages from the Holy Bible and then he rolled it up like a cigarette and pretended to smoke it".

The boys come from a variety of ethnic Muslim backgrounds -- one is believed to be an Albanian/Malaysian, another Lebanese and another Indonesian.

•2007: Christians in Gaza fear for their lives as Muslims burn Bibles and destroy crosses

18 Jun 2007, Christians in Gaza Fear for Their Lives as Muslims Burn Bibles and Destroy CrossesFather Manuel Musallem, head of Gaza's Latin church, told the AP that Muslims have ransacked, burned and looted a school and convent that are part of the Gaza Strip's small Romany Catholic community. He told the AP that crosses were broken, damage was done to a statue of Jesus, and at the Rosary Sister School and nearby convent, prayer books were burned.
...
Father Musalam additionally told The Jerusalem Post that the Muslim gunmen used rocket-propeled grenades (RPGs) to blow through the doors of the church and school, before burning Bibles and destroying every cross they could get their hands on.

•2008: Muslims burn Bible in Pakistan

19 Dec 2008, Muslims burn Bible in PakistanPervez Masih tells AsiaNews that on that day, he and others were whitewashing and decorating the little church for Christmas. They stopped at noon for lunch, leaving the church open. When they returned, they found the bible and other sacred texts reduced to ashes, and a handwritten letter telling them to convert to Islam if they wanted to "live in peace" and avoid hell. In Pakistan, there is significant controversy over the law on blasphemy, condemning even to death those who offend the sacred book of Islam, the Qur'an. But nothing is done against blasphemous acts toward the books of other religions.

The whole concept of "Muslims would never burn the bible because the Koran says so" is about as fake as when Christians say "Jesus teaches peace and goodwill towards all men" but then go out and burn a bunch of Korans to piss of the Muslims. Again, no disrespect on your personally, I am only pointing out that your statement is inaccurate.

[shikitohno]

Yeah, from what I understand of it, parts of New York have a pretty similar climate to Afghanistan's. Mostly mountainous, has a fair amount of arable land, but most of the really good land goes towards growing poppies for opium production. You know, if we really wanted to improve the living standard for Afghans, we could always just get rid of that pesky law that makes heroin illegal. Bam! Instant market for something Afghanistan is already great at making.

[Roo]

If they do the same type of crap again, time to turn the sand into glass.

Not trying to pick a fight or single out any particular person here, but the US needs a geography lesson on Afghanistan. We tend to think of Muslims = Middle East. Afghanistan is geographically and historically firmly rooted in Central Asia, and the culture is vastly different from what you might be imagining in the Arab world. They are not "sand people". The only desert to be found there is in the south near the Pakistan border. That being largely irrelevant, it is our failure to understand a people we are at war with that perpetuates and exacerbates the difficulties of this conflict.

[shikitohno]

It is clear as day that people in Afghanistan will respond this way to the smallest of provocations, and that will never change. Just one more reason to GTFO.

This is the exact thing that I'm taking issue with Roo. They react this way at the drop of a hat. This isn't exactly the first time this has happened, and it didn't take very long into the war before you first saw them doing this. I'm all for respecting their cultures and religion. What I'm saying is that this way they go about trying to get what they want is totally counter-productive. You don't get others to treat you like an adult by throwing a temper tantrum. They've got a good number of legitimate grievances, but their method of trying to get what they want has not worked for them in the past (see any number of similar riots in terribly oppressed Muslim nations, as well as previous ones in Afghanistan), and it will never work.

Their rioting makes them look bad, almost always winds up hurting and killing way more Afghans than it does their supposed enemy, and fails to have any lasting impact. If all they have is their traditions, they should rally around them, and either undertake peaceful protests to try and get their demands met, or wage an all out guerilla war against us to get the message across that we are not wanted there. After a war that kicks us out of the country, they can have whatever sort of government they want, that they think will respect their culture and traditions. The warfare part worked out pretty well against the USSR. I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised to see either the Taliban, or a similar group of theocratic warlords sweep into power and dismantle whatever shred of democracy they do have though. Comparatively speaking, the current response of rioting for a few days or a week is a positively childish response that doesn't accomplish anything in the long term, but lets everyone pat each other on the back and say, "Good job, we showed them, didn't we?"

There's bound to be plenty of pretty smart people living in Afghanistan. It would be nice to see them learn from the past, and try a different tactic.

[Roo]

Good post Rick I couldn't agree with that more.

[wa3zrm]

It is clear as day that people in Afghanistan will respond this way to the smallest of provocations, and that will never change. Just one more reason to GTFO.

So true... sad it takes years for us to learn. We got Osama bin Laden, time to come home.

If they do the same type of crap again, time to turn the sand into glass.

[rickcharles606]

I typically don't get involved with these types of threads, but I'm a veteran and the thought of "prosecuting" these soldiers for burning Korans is ridiculous. Should they be punished, yeah sure. That being said, I don't feel we as a society should allow these men to have their lives ruined for an insensitive action. It wasn't criminal, and let's not forget...our elected officials asked them to go to Afghanistan in the first place. And they went.

If Muslim people want us to respect and honor their holy book, then they should do the same and not defile it by trying to pass coded messages to one another that could lead to yet another dead American. The only fault I find with the American soldiers is that if these Korans did have coded messages written in them...they should have been kept for study and future use against the enemy.

[Roo]

We need some perspective here. We are talking about what happened in Afghanistan, not bibles being burned in the USA and how the Amish would react (??). While I'm not at all in support of the Afghan response, let us not forget who we are dealing with. Afghans, simply put, have nothing left but their traditions, tribal allegiances, and Islam. They are an occupied country, and after 10 years of the occupiers "murdering" (as it is perceived) and accomplishing nothing (as it is perceived), now they (we) are insulting their deeply-seeded religion, which is all that some feel they have left to grasp on to. Given this scenario, is it any surprise that it takes little to push these folks over the edge?

It is clear as day that people in Afghanistan will respond this way to the smallest of provocations, and that will never change. Just one more reason to GTFO.

[shikitohno]

Give the guys some disciplinary action like sgreger mentioned, and make them attend some sensitivity seminar if you really want to punish them. Dumb move on their part for sure, but they did have reasons for destroying them (though I think analysing those messages and keeping them on file would have been smarter), and the reaction is just completely disproportional. It only serves to reinforce negative images of Islam in the West. Bibles get burned in the US. You don't see the Amish storming out of PA and killing folks every time it happens, though.

There does come a time when people have to say, "Muslims, man the hell up. I'm not Muslim, I'm no more bound by your religious laws than you are by Hindu religious decrees. Not everyone is going to always be nice to you, deal with it." There are far more appropriate ways to express your displeasure with US actions than breaking out the riot hat and going and killing people every time we piss you off. In the long run, this is only going to hurt Afghans themselves. They hurt a lot more of their own people than ours, and if we get fed up enough, we can say, "To hell with this, good luck with that nation-building thing, we're out."

I know this is a bit anathema to them, but perhaps Muslims could learn something from Hindus. Don't like an occupying nation? Take a page out of Ghandi's book. Make sure it's the peaceful protest page, and not the "Screw industrialization, let's go back to an agrarian society!" page. If every one of your protests isn't a damn riot, you'll gain a lot more sympathy with Western audiences, which will translate over time to a lot more pressure on Western governments from their citizens to treat you properly, and get out if that's what you want. With the current protest plan, you simply come off looking like a bunch of uncivilized jackasses.

You know what? Screw it. I'm just going to print off a copy of this post and stash it somewhere, and 10 years after the US finally gets the message and gets the hell out, I'll see if I can't arrange to have it translated and dropped by the thousands over Afghanistan. This whole, "Never hurt our feelings, or we'll riot and indiscriminately kill people, even the ones on our side. Islam #1!" thing is definitely going to have seemed like it panned out pretty well for you in another 20 years when you're living under another brutally repressive theocracy.

[Frosted]

If anybody knows an ounce about modern soldiering, burning the Koran was an idiotic, insensitive and cringeworthy thing to do. Operationally, this kind of stupidity can take years off any progress gained.

On the other hand, killing people because of it is equally idiotic.

[Naswari]

Do you know how often Muslims burn American flags, bibles, etc?

Some Muslims burn the American flag as do some people in central and south America as well as people in other parts of the world, but no Muslims will ever burn the Bible.Muslims (and yes I happen to be one, maybe not a very good one but a Muslim nevertheless) respect the Bible and we respect and love Jesus and believe him to be a Prophet/messenger of God just as we believe Abraham,Moses etc were also messengers of God.

So your assertion that Muslims burn bibles is a false one.

I could say a lot more about the whole situation in the world today but I wont, I come here to talk about snus not religion or world politics so Ill leave it at that.

Good day

[sgreger1]

I maintain that these guys shouldn't face any crazy punishment, give them an UCMJ Article 15 just like you give for any other punishment, and then be done with it.

I understand where you guys are coming from in that this makes us look bad, but you have to realize that our soldiers for the most part see things in a very black and white, us vs. them mentality since that is how it is portrayed in their environment. If you think a little book burning as a "**** you" gesture to muslims is bad than I am glad you don't know about the rest of the stuff that goes on. In my unit it was like the holy grail if you killed someone and were able to find a Koran on their body and bring it back. They search you when you come back home to make sure no one is taking war trophies, but things can always slip through the cracks.

It's real easy to sit here and talk about how it's not nice to hurt someones feelings, but the men in question here are not in the business of kissing owies and worrying about feelings, nor are they in an environment that reinforces empathy in any real way. In the army there is one punishment, an Article 15: you lose all of your rank, have to work till midnight every day (and then wake up at 5am the next morning to do it all again) and then you lose half your pay for 2 months too. This is given for DUI's, fighting, stealing shit, or frankly anything else. Jail time is only for someone who REALLY ****ed up, like went AWOL or murdered someone. HURTING MUSLIMS FEELINGS DOES NOT COUNT. It is not a real "**** up", it is just stupid ass young men being stupid. It is bad for our image, but soldiers aren't too worried about that, that is for the civilian affairs losers to worry about, at least that's the attitude. Jailing these young men for burning pieces of paper just because some group happens to really like whats written on that piece of paper is retarded.

Do you know how often Muslims burn American flags, bibles, etc? It's common practice, we don't get an apology and no one goes to jail. And I don't think anyone should, because it's just free men doing what they do. In the army you are less free so some punishment may be in order, but not jail time for god's sake.


We are engaged in a decade long war with millions of deaths (many of those civilians), we have destroyed the infrastructure of two entire countries, we have poisoned their children with depleted uranium, and we have bankrupted ourselves in the process.... and you people want to complain about how burning a book has pissed off some religious nuts. Who in the **** cares.