A Little Perspective on Health and Wealth Around the World

[GoVegan]

England was a pretty rough place to live then. The rich were very rich and the poor were very poor.
Ireland - that's another story. Ireland was sucked dry by the rich English. Even during the potato famine the English still demanded all food to be exported. All in all the British Isles was a tough place in which to live.

I would say that the United States is definitely heading in the direction. History does repeat itself. We are slowly becoming more like England 200 years ago.

[Frosted]

On South Africa. I worked with a South African Policeman for quite a few years. He was an English descendent South African - they tend to be more moderate than the dutch descendents.
His view was that white people made South Africa - cities, commerce, wealth, sanitation, farming,, mining etc etc. He maintained that apartheid was good and since the breakdown of apartheid the country has more corruption and crime. Basically all the guys he brings to the cells are black, highly unintelligent and dangerous. Also, he maintained that the black police officers he worked with were useless, and dangerous.
The place is an expensive place to live in - wages are extremely low.

He accepted however that the country had to move on and that the biggest problem for black people in SA was the fact they haven't been educated properly at all in the past. He agreed that the most important thing for blacks was education as they are so poor which drives them to crime. Having said that - the black population were living as they were before whites came and when the whites started making cities, agriculture etc the blacks wanted some of that. What I'm saying here is that if it weren't for whites, blacks wouldn't have any of what they've got today, which is a bit more than they had before whites came.

Having said all that - he loves the place and went back to live there recently and return to police work. But he's a danger freak. Crime in SA is pretty horrific.

Guys - I'm merely relating what he said. I know nothing of SA so please don't turn on me for his comments.

[GoVegan]

Yeah, that's what I hear from people who have left. Living in patrolled compounds, private guards, armed escorts, etc.

On the plus side - It makes for some fun innovation:

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ti-rape_device

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikiped...lamethrower%29

I found a website with more info on the Rape-Axe and even a cool little video on how it works. OUCH!!!

http://inventorspot.com/articles/rap..._rapists_40114

[tom502]

Of course when discussing race, we have to talk in generalities, because individuals differ, from being dumb and smart, and inbetween, and physically strong, and weak, and inbetween, and having a strong work or education ethic and a weak one. So while generalities are not incorrect, it is a generality, and individuals differ. As sgreg points out, there is an anti-white bias, and I think it's the new PC liberal "communism", where the lowly masses seek to pull down the elites, and instead of it being based on financial classes, in today's world it's based on the most successful races. Though this is mainly done in the US and Europe, maybe because the Asian nations are not so immigrant diverse, or they arn't as welcome to them and allowing them to organize and voice against their "oppressers". It seems sadly, human nature, those less able, or ambitious, want to tear down those who are, and take from them, that which they themselves were unable to accomplish. So, I guess it's jealousy largly. A bum who does nothing feels he deserves the wealth the rich amitious person aquired, and if he can't have it, he wants to destroy it. I think that's the failing with liber socialism, in that it seeks to force equality, but it will only make everyone equally poor, dumb, and dependent.

[raptor]

Socialism doesn't seek to force equality, you're confusing that with theoretical communism.

[raptor]

Yes, Europeans brought a lot of their brand of civilization to the Americas and Africa. They are responsible for the modernization of infrastructure. However, at the same time the exploitative imperialist tendencies were in full throttle, and the natives were subjugated with poor wages, poor living conditions and no proper education. What your friend said is correct, Frosted, that education is the key to fighting crime and ignorance. But with regards to what the white Europeans did he only tells half the story: while yes they did improve the infrastructure of South Africa, they also are responsible for keeping the black man down. Apartheid was a ticking time bomb, when affluent Europeans ravaged the country to their own benefit and the black natives remained poor and exploited. Now that the European descendents are ousted from universal control, the lack of education and decent wages is apparent, so crime and corruption is rampant. You can't blame the blacks on that, just as you can't blame the blacks in America for embracing gangster culture: our elite created the conditions, while the poor filled in the blanks through their fight for survival.

It is ironic that tom blames the blacks for high crime and corruption but decries anyone with an anti-wealthy (ergo, anti-white) mentality.

[Darwin]

Well if colonialist exploitation can be endlessly blamed for the parlous state of the Third World then by what logic can flinging billions in "aid" at all these corruptocracies be in any way an effective or desirable course of action? More aid would seem to only perpetuate the corruption rather than allowing these countries to painfully and gradually work through their problems on their own. We may share a collective guilt for all the damage done but aside from endless apologias what can "we" do to really make things better. Answer--not very damn much. Places like Zimbawe and Nigeria need to reform from the inside out and our proffered billions will inevitably flow largely to those who don't "need" it. It's going to be a long bitter tumultuous process and our guilt driven expensive good intentions have proven to mostly do at least as much harm as good. Likely the weight comes down hard on the harm end of the scale.

[raptor]

Well if colonialist exploitation can be endlessly blamed for the parlous state of the Third World then by what logic can flinging billions in "aid" at all these corruptocracies be in any way an effective or desirable course of action? More aid would seem to only perpetuate the corruption rather than allowing these countries to painfully and gradually work through their problems on their own. We may share a collective guilt for all the damage done but aside from endless apologias what can "we" do to really make things better. Answer--not very damn much. Places like Zimbawe and Nigeria need to reform from the inside out and our proffered billions will inevitably flow largely to those who don't "need" it. It's going to be a long bitter tumultuous process and our guilt driven expensive good intentions have proven to mostly do at least as much harm as good. Likely the weight comes down hard on the harm end of the scale.

My discussion had nothing to do with the current aid support system for Africa.

But to answer your question, yes, we need to face the fact that imperialism is the root cause for a lot of issues in Africa and the Middle East. Look at what we've done to Iraq (previously a moderate state run by a ruthless dictator but no worse than the Saudis) and Afghanistan. Is there a problem with the elite in Africa capturing a good portion of the aid for themselves? Yes. Should that mean that aid shouldn't go to Africa? Hell no. This argument is the same one I hear about "black welfare moms" using the American poverty system. Oh, the system is (possibly) being exploited, best solution is to get rid of it, not reform! Very shallow thinking.

As for the African nations, they won't get through their problems. Their people will continually starve and as long as the oil is flowing (i.e. Equatorial Guinea) their leaders won't care. We're also combating HIV, and have actually had some success as of late. Abandon aid, and those diseases will see resurgence in Africa, then extend more worldwide.

[sgreger1]

My discussion had nothing to do with the current aid support system for Africa.

But to answer your question, yes, we need to face the fact that imperialism is the root cause for a lot of issues in Africa and the Middle East. Look at what we've done to Iraq (previously a moderate state run by a ruthless dictator but no worse than the Saudis) and Afghanistan. Is there a problem with the elite in Africa capturing a good portion of the aid for themselves? Yes. Should that mean that aid shouldn't go to Africa? Hell no. This argument is the same one I hear about "black welfare moms" using the American poverty system. Oh, the system is (possibly) being exploited, best solution is to get rid of it, not reform! Very shallow thinking.

As for the African nations, they won't get through their problems. Their people will continually starve and as long as the oil is flowing (i.e. Equatorial Guinea) their leaders won't care. We're also combating HIV, and have actually had some success as of late. Abandon aid, and those diseases will see resurgence in Africa, then extend more worldwide.

And where the **** is our free aid? Where are the otehr nations whoa are rushing into the line to help our uninsured get coverage, or to help us pay for our death or solve poverty etc. Why are we always the ones giving out free money?



I say africa and everyone else doesn't get shit until we are rich again. Foreign aid is philanthropy, and philanthropy is for the rich, not for those 13 trillion in debt. We can't afford it and those countries hate us anyways. Let private donations continue to drive the charity market. The government should not give any aid to anyone, including israel.

[raptor]

I actually agree. My post was really in regards to the world itself helping fund aid in Africa. As Americans we are in a bind, escalating national and personal debt, fighting two senseless wars, paying money to Israel. I agree, we should definitely cut back. But the outflow of aid should be the last spigot stopped.

[sgreger1]

I actually agree. My post was really in regards to the world itself helping fund aid in Africa. As Americans we are in a bind, escalating national and personal debt, fighting two senseless wars, paying money to Israel. I agree, we should definitely cut back. But the outflow of aid should be the last spigot stopped.

Actually ti should be the first. If you routinely give billions to charity, and suddenly you lose your job, max out all your credit cards and are now 13 trillion in debt, I think the first plan of action should involve discontinuing your lavish charity spending.


The world hates us and won't help when we collapse. Our good deeds do nothing, and mos tof the aid is captured by the local militias in these countries. look at the gaza strip, billions in aid a year for only a few million people living there, and yet they are all still starving. We are essentially air dropping palletes of dollar bills to Al Quaida and Hezbollah.


Israel goes first because they are a rich country and have their own means of surviving. Then the countries who have repeatedly been caught stealing the aid money we give them. Then everyone else. No money to anyone, we are broke. Withdraw from middle east wars, close the door and start looking over the budget for the next thing to cut.

[raptor]

We are essentially air dropping palletes of dollar bills to Al Quaida and Hezbollah.

I have a feeling that it's rather Israel which captures a good portion of Gaza aid. Hell, even Netanyahu said the siege is purposely meant to starve out the Gazans.

[sgreger1]

I have a feeling that it's rather Israel which captures a good portion of Gaza aid. Hell, even Netanyahu said the siege is purposely meant to starve out the Gazans.

Ummmmm no. Actually it is Hezbollah. They do it openly and no one questions where it is going. They also burn down UN aid camps. But everyone blames israel for their starvation, even though their other neighbors (Egypt) aren't doing anything to help.

[raptor]

Any source of that claim?

Everyone but the US blames Israel. Israel is maintaining the siege, Egypt complies out of Israeli influence or some other shady reasons.

[sgreger1]

Any source of that claim?

Everyone but the US blames Israel. Israel is maintaining the siege, Egypt complies out of Israeli influence or some other shady reasons.

Right off the top of my head:

If stuffing billions worth of aid into the Palestinian territories could end Islamist terrorism out of Gaza, it might be worth the money. That seems to be President Obama's gamble, with Secretary of State Hillary Clinton jetting to a donors' conference in Sharm el-Sheikh, Egypt, this past Monday, to chip in $900 million on behalf of U.S. tax payers. All told, more than 70 countries, cheered on by United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon, pledged a whopping total of $4.5 billion in fresh aid to the Palestinians.

The focus was largely on repairing damage to Gaza, after Israel's recent three-week battle to shut down mortar and rocket attacks out of the terrorist-controlled enclave. But, as Clinton described it, this is a nuanced effort. The broad aim is to bypass the Iranian-backed Hamas terrorists who control Gaza, and shovel resources for strictly humanitarian uses into the enclave "in coordination with" the Palestinian Authority, which is run by the U.S.-favored Fatah faction, Hamas' rival, based in the West Bank.


As for the financial safeguards--somewhere in Gaza, or maybe Damascus or Tehran, members of Hamas must be smiling. As long as Gaza is controlled by Hamas, any aid funneled into the enclave is one dollar less that Hamas might be impelled to spend on upkeep of its turf, and one dollar more available for terrorist activities.




Hamas runs the government, that is how they get the money. They let the Ameicans pay for their food whilst they use their resources to continue fighting their "destroy Israel" battle that they have been waging for a while now.


Israel siezes any aid coming through it's blockades since people continuously try to smuggle in contraband. All aid from the UN etc goes through the Palestinian government, which is run by Hamas who was elected into power in 2006. That is what I base my claims off of. We give money to the government, they are the government, and they keep spending money on rockets and shit to shoot at Israeli civilians instead of feeding their people.