Eu revision of tobacco products directive

[lxskllr]

I agree that this is about total power, there are no principles at play here. There is no argument to win, as they can just change up the frame of the debate. They believe in nothing but power.

That's what it comes down to. If someone wants to huff mercury vapor, I'm for it. As long as a company hasn't lied to get you to do it. Individual freedom trumps all. There is no such thing as greater public good. As long as the individual's actions only affect themselves, their lives should be their own. Everyone was issued 2 parents at birth. That's the only correct number. It isn't the government's place to step in to supplement that.

[snusgetter]

That's how I see it. If 1 otherwise disinterested person changes their viewpoint on account of me, then it's all worth it. Say nothing, and they win by default.

That's also the way I feel. I don't give a flying damn about the ATNs because
there's no way of getting through to them. It's trying to engage apathetic
bystanders/onlookers to hear another side of the argument. Who knows,
they may even lose their indifference someday when something they
enjoy is placed on the chopping block to be destroyed. They won't be
able to say they were unaware that cancer of the intellect didn't exist.

[khalid]

I think that many people recoil from the cognitive disruption of the debate and will recoil from anything that sounds similar or uses the same rhetorical techniques, as this adds to the dissonance. One may not be a scary power monger, but can effectively add to the mental confusion and the resultant malaise.

[snusgetter]

I think that many people recoil from the cognitive disruption of the debate and will recoil from anything that sounds similar or uses the same rhetorical techniques, as this adds to the dissonance. One may not be a scary power monger, but can effectively add to the mental confusion and the resultant malaise.

Why do I get the impression we're reading from basically the same book
but are on different pages!! I like the pictures on my pages!!!

[lxskllr]

I think that many people recoil from the cognitive disruption of the debate and will recoil from anything that sounds similar or uses the same rhetorical techniques, as this adds to the dissonance. One may not be a scary power monger, but can effectively add to the mental confusion and the resultant malaise.

Perhaps... I'm not sure it really makes a difference anyway. It's all just tilting windmills. The antis have big pharma looking for profits, and big government looking for power. The tobacco companies have been neutered, so it's all a losing battle. The nazis make up unsubstantiated/fraudulent claims as they go, and everybody takes them as fact due to the long term demonization of tobacco. It's a battle that can't be won, with the majority of people willing to give up freedom for protection :^/

[khalid]

Why do I get the impression we're reading from basically the same book
but are on different pages!! I like the pictures on my pages!!!

I hear you, yes we are not a million miles away.

[khalid]

Perhaps... I'm not sure it really makes a difference anyway. It's all just tilting windmills. The antis have big pharma looking for profits, and big government looking for power. The tobacco companies have been neutered, so it's all a losing battle. The nazis make up unsubstantiated/fraudulent claims as they go, and everybody takes them as fact due to the long term demonization of tobacco. It's a battle that can't be won, with the majority of people willing to give up freedom for protection :^/

Oh, no doubt, no winning here. So what to do? My focus of interest is on how to manifest transitional space, clear spots where people can think freely and are able to withstand; anxiety, insecurity and unknowing, without fear.

[lxskllr]

There is nothing to do. The only thing that can be done is make your voice heard. Organize, and buy paid advertisements. Recruit a propagandist to get the word out. I don't think it'll make a difference because the boulder's already rolling the wrong way, but it might make you feel good to try :^)

[khalid]

It really is a sinister juggernaut of dismal shitness.
I feel better for saying that.

[GoVegan]

There is nothing to do. The only thing that can be done is make your voice heard. Organize, and buy paid advertisements. Recruit a propagandist to get the word out. I don't think it'll make a difference because the boulder's already rolling the wrong way, but it might make you feel good to try :^)

I was looking at The Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids info on Guidestar and there is an enormous amount of money being generated by anti tobacco efforts. Many of these anti tobacco charities have multi million dollar budgets with teams of people making 6 figure salaries running them. It's too bad that someone credible like Dr. Radu doesn't come up with a non profit organization that lobbies on behalf of reduced harm proponents.

[lxskllr]

I was looking at The Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids info on Guidestar and there is an enormous amount of money being generated by anti tobacco efforts. Many of these anti tobacco charities have multi million dollar budgets with teams of people making 6 figure salaries running them. It's too bad that someone credible like Dr. Radu doesn't come up with a non profit organization that lobbies on behalf of reduced harm proponents.

Not too many people are going to risk their careers supporting tobacco. One guy might be able to get away with it, but an organization would be eviscerated by the press. You also have to keep in mind, that it would probably take some financing by big tobacco. They aren't gonna do that due to the bad press that would occur, and everybody's so conditioned to accept that tobacco's evil, that your message would be invalidated just due to their involvement. The anti tobacco juggernaut is virtually unstoppable at this point. With people willing to give up rights in exchange for protection, and their willingness to allow other's rights to be taken because it doesn't directly concern them. The best thing we can hope for is nothing changes from exactly right now. Imagining anything will actually get better is a pipe dream.

[muddyfunkstar]

It really is a sinister juggernaut of dismal shitness.
I feel better for saying that.

Heh, I'm stealing that line

What really sticks in the craw is that the UK government would never dream of making cigarettes illegal because of the tax revenue they make from them, yet they uphold a ban on smokeless because it might lead to more people smoking? Give me a break.

Sad thing is the tobacco companies won't push them on snus because it'll be such a small market share it won't make a blind bit of difference to them.

I may have the odd cigarette, occasional cigar, but if I couldn't get hold of snus I'd be back on cigs fuill time, and that is an utterly depressing thought.

[Mordred]

Well, I've submitted my comments on the EU site, for what it's worth, and if I get around to it, I'll write to my ministry of health too, asking them to advocate lifting the ban on Snus.

However, I am also now in the market for a large freezer and would be grateful for information on good shops to go to in Sweden...

[AndyMellow]

Just wanted to add to this that the opportunity to comment has been extended - from the site itself:

The deadline for submissions of comments is extended to 17 December 2010

Go vote for lifting the Snus ban

[chadizzy1]

Just wanted to add to this that the opportunity to comment has been extended - from the site itself:

The deadline for submissions of comments is extended to 17 December 2010

Go vote for lifting the Snus ban

A big BUMP for this one.