• The Dipper's Guide To Snus

    I have been meaning to post something like this for a while. It seems that many if not most of the folks hear are x-smokers. I applaud you all in your efforts to become smoke free. However, I have come to snus by a different rout and so I want to share my experiences with all those x-dippers who may be looking at this site for suggestions and direction to get started.

    So quiet in the pound while I go over this and no pissing on the floor. The first thing that you will recognize when you switch to snus is the chemical difference between snus and dip. Call it the Swedish purity standard of snus. I dipped a lot (and now I snus a lot). O.K. I chain snus. When I dipped my lip stayed torn up all the time. I was constantly getting that, teeth hurt, gum receding, leathery creasing of the lip (AKA ďDip-LipĒ). I have been snusing now for over a year and a half andthe inside of my mouth stays smooth and no more dip lip at all. Also, if I went a few hours without a dip, I would get very dizzy and it was pretty hard to concentrate. Now I am not saying that after a few hours without snus that I am unaffected. However, what I realized is that what I thought was a nic fix was in fact a fix of all the other crap that American tobacco puts into their dip (e.g. formaldehyde). For a couple of weeks after making the change to snus, my lip actually craved the dip (kid you not). Another, indication of the chemical difference is that I could not swallow dip without a great deal of heart burn. Snus is meant to be swallowed (like tea or coffee). For me the purity of snus was a major draw and motivation for me to make the change. This purity is evidenced by the low occurrence of oral cancer and gum disease in Sweden (look it up. It is well documented).

    The second thing that you will notice is the cost. My monthly budget went from ~$42.00 a month for dip to ~$30.00 a month for snus to ~$20.00 a month (now that I order my snus in bulk). These prices are with the shipping expense included. Remember, the average American can of dip has 34g of tobacco. Loose snus has on average 45g. For me, an average American dip lasted about 35-45 minutes. An average snus stays in for about two hours. Also, even the regular strength snus is a good deal stronger in nic than the strongest American dip. Thus, less goes further. I use on average 1 can of snus every three and a half days to four days. With dip, I used 1 can every one and a half days. So in comparing the cost you canít just compare the price of cans. Start by comparing the cost per gram (include the shipping cost). Next, compare your over all monthly cost. Once you get your rotation set and can order in bulk, the cost will drop even further.

    The third thing you will recognize is the flavor. The move from American dip to snus is like a move from instant coffee to a high grade roasting house blend. In fact, you will look back on your favorite dip with the fondness of flavored pancake syrup- a glob of sweet, over the top, artificial, nastiness.

    However, that said snus is more subtle and refined in its flavor. Initially, you may not be able to taste all the intricacies of the particular snus you are using. Give it time and try a variety. You will eventually find more flavor there than you expect. Which brings me to another point: most dippers have a single dip that they stick to pretty regularly. Not so with snus. Most sunusers (myself included) have several brands that are in their regular rotation. My advice is to hold off at first on ordering rolls at a time. Again pups, give it time and try a variety.

    Here are a few suggestions of the stronger flavors that you might want to begin with (all loose).

    Gotlands gul (yellow)
    Knox
    Granit
    Kronan
    Skruf
    Gustavus
    Gotlands gra (grey)

    Also, if you were a Skoal or Kodiak fan you might want to try the Offroad Wintergreen (but I do not condone it any more than I would have condoned your berry Skoal over my Copenhagen straight).

    You will probably not be able to taste Ettan, Prima Fint, or Grov at first (I still canít taste Prima Fint after a year and a half but Grov is one of my favorites. The slow sturdy flavor is delectable). Save Ettan and Grov for your second or third order. You will want to try them just not at first IMO.

    Another thing that you need to know is that most snus is much more finely ground than American dip. All the above recommendations (with the exception of Granit) will have more of the consistency that you are used to with dip. Now this is both a good and a bad thing and leads us to the whole lipping it verses baking it debate (i.e. lower lip verses upper lip). I do both, though I primarily bake. Now be warned pups that lipping it will get you labeled a big olí redneck by our Swedish/European counter parts. But a little redneck would probably do em all some good. Here is where I come down on it. There are some times when a man has just got to spit. You canít say ďWell kiss my assĒ or ďIíd piss on a spark plug if I thought it would helpĒ and end it by baking something they call a pris. There are things in life and utterances to be said that have just got to end with a spit. However, that said, the convenience of not having to spit, of being able to work and snus at the same time, of putting in a pris and having it go strong for 2-3 hours are all great advantages. So when youíre fishing, drinking bear in the back yard, or looking at a busted water line and trying to figure out how to fix it- lip it. For the rest of the time you are going to want to learn to bake (use your upper lip). One more thing, snus will not last as long as dip when you lip it. The finer cut means that more is lost with each spit than with dip.

    To learn to bake a pris watch Zeroís video posted on the forum and start with Granit or Roda. Both are incredibly easy to bake and taste great. One final point. You will not go wrong purchasing a Pris Master to start off with. They are only a couple of bucks and will help you a lot as you get started learning to bake. However as a member of the pound and an x-dipper you will find that you have skills that our x-smoker friends do not possess. You know how to wield loose tobacco. It is in your blood. It is your natural arena of expression. Having this special power, I found that once my upper lip got used to the snus, I no longer needed to bake. Now I just pinch, knock off the excess, place it under the lip, and give one quick adjustment with the tongue and I am good to go- no runs, no mudslides.

    With all that, let me be the first to welcome you to the world of snus. I hope some of the things that I have found may be of help to you. But in the end, as Sagedil has often reminded us, itís what you like and what works for you. Have fun with it and try a variety.


    ***** Update*****

    rscott22 has found a great video on how to bake a pris. Check it out. You can find the link on page two of this thread ,the first post. Great find rscott22 thanks!!

    Also since writing this post I see that Northerner.com offers a ďTry Out BoxĒ containing 10 different types of loose snus per box (they also have a try out box for portions and mini portions so make sure you get the loose one) . This is a great place to begin. I highly recommend that someone new to snus (or loose) begin with the "try out box".

    ******Update**********

    As I read the forum and try to help answer some questions for those just beginning with los, there seems to be three important point that keep repeating. Therefore I am including them here in this second edit. Here goes:
    1. One of the most important things to do as you begin with los is to give your lip time to adjust to having a pris under it. Give it about 2-3 weeks (depending on how often you use los). Once your lip adjusts, everything gets a whole lot easier.
    2. Second, the mistake that most people make when beginning is to make the pris too big. So, make the pris smaller and work up if you need to.
    3. Third, I think finding the pris placement that works for you is also very important. Iíve seen all the Swedish videos where people put snus under their upper middle lip and for the life of me I cannot fathom why. For me the placement that works best, is more discrete, and is easier to control is on the side about 3 teeth back from the two front (too far back and you will generate more saliva and thus mudslides, too far front and it just did not feel right to me)

    Now as far as playing with the pris with your tongue: I found that letting it set up and kind of mold to the mouth worked best before fiddling with it (a few minutes, until it feels settled). Then play with it all you want. Once itís compressed and in there, it will be far less likely to break up or have parts pulled away by the tongue.

    Finally, and I cannot stress this enough, the real trick is taking your time and finding what works for you. I think one of the most important aspects of this forum is the sharing of ideas, techniques, and experiences- not as a rule of how it must be done- but as various ideas (things you may not have thought of) that you can try, mix and match, and adjust to fit your own preferences.

    Hope this helps, give it time, and snuson my friends.

    Written by: Snusdog

    Snusdog calling on his dip pups


    Last edited by Snusdog on Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:09 am; edited 4 times in total
    Comments 37 Comments
    1. gambino's Avatar
      gambino -
      i'd like to add that an experienced diphead shouldn't have much problem with pinching from the can and shoving in the lip.
      Handbaking is too messy and drawn out, not that difficult to do what i said, esp for people experienced with smokeless.
      It's really the only way to go if you use los
    1. Snusify's Avatar
      Snusify -
      The dippers guide to snus is not bad but is factually incorrect in a few places.
      " When I dipped my lip stayed torn up all the time. I was constantly getting that, teeth hurt, gum receding, leathery creasing of the lip (AKA “Dip-Lip”). "

      Sure dip can tear up the gums some more than others, this is why dippers switch around where they use it. Dip-Lip is known at 'Gator Lip' in the dip community and Snus also does the same thing. If i use loose snus in the same spot for a few days, yep gator lip. its not a big deal.

      " However, what I realized is that what I thought was a nic fix was in fact a fix of all the other crap that American tobacco puts into their dip (e.g. formaldehyde)."

      This is the same winge that the anti tobacco nazis cry.

      NO CRAP is added to dip. The trace elements of chemicals found in American Smokeless tobacco ARE NOT ADDED they are a by product of the fertiliser used to grow the tobacco and a by product of the curing process of the tobacco. The trace amounts of formaldehyde in dip are the same levels that are found in the food you eat. Vegetables that are grown in the ground also pick up trace elements of formaldehyde. Nobody complains about that.

      A Dippers guide to snus should really only focus on the differences in flavours and the cut of the tobacco, how to use it, nicotine content etc
    1. Snusdog's Avatar
      Snusdog -
      Let me begin by saying that I have all the respect in the world for Snusify but I must disagree with him here on two points:

      Quote Originally Posted by Snusify View Post
      Sure dip can tear up the gums some more than others, this is why dippers switch around where they use it. Dip-Lip is known at 'Gator Lip' in the dip community and Snus also does the same thing. If i use loose snus in the same spot for a few days, yep gator lip. its not a big deal.
      I get a lot of folks who occasionally dabble in dip that dispute this claim. I have no idea what snussyís background is in this respect but the majority of long term dippers on this forum will tell you that what snus does to your mouth (salt and pressure texturing) and what dip does (something more like a chemical burn) are two very different things. I chain dipped for over 20 years. I have chain snused for over 3. There is no comparison between long term expose to dip and long term exposure to snus. NONE. My dentist will begrudgingly agree. I went from precancer to normal by switching to snus with no cut back in use.

      Quote Originally Posted by Snusify View Post
      NO CRAP is added to dip. The trace elements of chemicals found in American Smokeless tobacco ARE NOT ADDED they are a by product of the fertiliser used to grow the tobacco and a by product of the curing process of the tobacco. The trace amounts of formaldehyde in dip are the same levels that are found in the food you eat. Vegetables that are grown in the ground also pick up trace elements of formaldehyde. Nobody complains about that.
      Are you kidding me? Because we all know that Big American Tobacco has NEVER chemically altered their products or LIED about having done so. All those tobacco settlements are just figments of our imagination. Right? I mean of all the things that we could choose to dispute, why go for one that is so well documented.

      And nobody is talking about fiberglass or formaldehyde or irrelevant trace amounts of whatever.

      At the same time, neither are we limiting our discussion to an ingredients list of things added at the final stage of production. There is a whole process that must be considered beyond sweeteners and flavoring.




      So with that please explain:
      • Why I can swallow the juice of one chemically identical product and not that of the other.
      • Why does one chemically identical product need to be refrigerated while the other has an extended shelf life without refrigeration
      • Please justify your equating of the vastly different curing processes used for dip and snus. Are you really suggesting that fire curing will not adversly alter tobacco any more than pasteurizing it will ? Come on. This one point alone is enough to send up red flags.
      • Finally, why does snus meet Swedish food grade standards while the chemically equivalent dip does not?
      Let me close with two quotes taken from the Guide


      Quote Originally Posted by Snusdog View Post
      No I do not think that American companies are trying to poison people.

      However, I do think they are trying to speed production while lowering the cost of production. I do think that they are trying to chemically prolong shelf life, I do think they are trying to enhance the addictive delivery system (all the while using lower grade leaf- which has less naturally occurring nicotine).

      And no this is not mere speculation or conspiracy theory. The alteration of tobacco products resulting in adverse effects on the consumerís health is well documented and has resulted in very large sums of money in tobacco settlement cases. FACT.

      Do I believe American tobacco is more conscientious about what goes into their product? Yes but only some what. In fact, I think it is more accurate to say that they are more careful and more wily. One thing is certain, American tobacco has made it quite clear that they CARE NOTHING about producing a safe alternative to cigarettes (just look at how they market Camel snus- the in between smokes solution.).

      So here is a question, are Swedish production methods a big trade secret? Do the Swedes alone know how to pasteurize tobacco? WHY THEN DO THE AMERCAN COMPANIES NOT CHOOSE THE SAFER METHOD OF PRODUCTION IF THEY KNOW HOW TO DO IT?
      Quote Originally Posted by Snusdog View Post

      Why isnít dip food?

      Why isnít it pasteurized?

      Given American Tobaccoís history, do these concerns merit caution and a healthy suspicion concerning American tobacco products? In other words, if it ainít quacking like a duck and if it canít swim like a duck is it fair for us to question the assertion that itís a duck, just like all the ducks in Sweden?

      That's all I've been trying to say.


      Love you bro and love your work. But I cannot follow you on this one.


      peace

      dog
    1. LaZeR's Avatar
      LaZeR -
      Dawg, I both respect and appreciate Snusify's vids and whatnot myself but I must say, your rebuttals hit spot on regarding the differences between "Dipping tobacco/Moist Snuff" & "Swedish Snus". There is definitely something different about dip that sure as hell tears up my gums, causes mysterious sores over extended usage, makes me go through it 4x as fast as snus (I used to dip a can of cope a day, now 8 months into snus, I avg a can of snus every 3 or 4 days). I'll try to tame my rhetoric about "Owen's Corning" owning stock in American Tobacco, however, with that said, there is certainly some kind of shit added to dip different than snus that does cause more physical blemishes within the mouth & gums.
    1. Snusify's Avatar
      Snusify -
      Let me restate that I think your guide is good dont get me wrong it is well written and clearly defines the differences between dip and snus.

      I am just a little tired of hearing the "Dip companies put all those chemicals in dip' argument.

      The bottom line is that Snus is healthier than Dip I am not denying that, I never said they were chemically the same.

      > Why I can swallow the juice of one chemically identical product and not that of the other.


      Snus and dip are not chemically identical. You can swallow snus juice as the tobacco has been pasteurised and the juice is not going to upset your stomach like fire cured Dip juice does.

      > Why does one chemically identical product need to be refrigerated while the other has an extended shelf life without refrigeration

      Snus and dip are not chemically identical. Snus as you know is refrigerated to keep it fresh and it prevents levels of TSNA's increasing.

      > Please justify your equating of the vastly different curing processes used for dip and snus. Are you really suggesting that fire curing will not adversly alter tobacco any more than pasteurizing it will ? Come on. This one point alone is enough to send up red flags.

      I am not suggesting that fire curing does not effect the tobacco I was just pointing out that the levels of toxins such as formaldehyde found in dip are not as bad as people make it out to be.
    1. Liandri's Avatar
      Liandri -
      Swedish Snus is not food. And neither is American Moist Snuff. Ladies and gentleman, tobacco is not a source of food and nor is it a spice. Nor should it be consumed as a food product.
    1. f. bandersnatch's Avatar
      f. bandersnatch -
      I think the arguments in the dipper's guide are being addressed here in a way that essentially neuters this conversation of any merit. Dog says that, in his experience, dip tears you up and states the fact that it is not regulated as a food product like snus is, and snusify says that there is not THAT much formaldehyde in dip and Liandri tells me not to eat it. We are not even arguing.

      And snus doesn't need to be refrigerated to slow the formation of more TSNAs, that's dip you're thinking of. The whole purpose of "pasteurization" is to kill that microorganisms that aid in the formation of TSNAs. The TSNAs in snus will stay constant throughout its shelf life, but the TSNAs in dip increase exponentially throughout.
    1. Snusdog's Avatar
      Snusdog -
      Guys thank you all for your responses. I think that talking this through and wrestling with varying opinions in a respectful manner is beneficial for the forum and all who read it. I have always felt that the object here is not to win the debate but for us as a community to get the information right.

      I am passionate about snus because of the drastic difference it has made to me. I am equally opposed to dip because what I experienced using it and because of the unanswered questions surrounding its production. Therefore, I think it is important to help x-dippers (just like it is to help x-smokers). I also think it is important that we do not unwittingly steer people to dip as just another form of snus

      That said

      I think f.b. nailed it in pointing out that in most regards we seemed to be talking past each other.

      If I have understood everyone thus far, I think we are in agreement on the major points her

      1. Dip is not going to kill you if you look at a can of it or even if you use it on occasion.
      2. However, just as with cigarettes, regular use will prove detrimental over time (for me I just avoid it altogether. The drawbacks are just not worth the benefits.)
      3. Snus offers a much safer option for dippers and will prove to be as much of a godsend for them as for x-smokers
      I also agree with snusify that dip hysteria only serves to cloud the real issues and is of no benefit to any. There are enough real reasons to use snus that we don’t have to fabricate sensational ones. Thanks bro for your response and clarification.

      I even agree with Liandri that you should not eat dip or snus

      Do not eat it from the can
      Do not eat it with your jam

      Do not eat it by a tree
      Do not eat while at sea

      Do not eat your snus young man
      Or Liandri’s head will go ka-bam

      However, that said, in small amounts and only in a culinary emergency, snus may very well serve as a viable substitute for caviar- what with the color and the salt- but that’s your call. I am not in anyway indorsing such a substitution. And L baby you know that is not what I meant.

      Laz as always thanks for you input as a long time dipper. The more voices the better

      dog
    1. Experimental Monkey's Avatar
      Experimental Monkey -
      I don't want to derail this coversation any, but I figured this would be a good place to ask about Tomahawk dip by the fine folks responsible for Discreet snus. I've heard people say that Tomahawk is pasteurized dip. Is there any proof out there for this claim? Also, if true, wouldn't effects of using it be minimal AND the juices be swallow-able? I really think fire cured tobacco could be a thing of the past soon as consumers become more educated on how things are done in Sweden.
    1. Snusdog's Avatar
      Snusdog -
      EM

      Has that even come out yet? I remember talk about a Tomahawk los but I never saw it. In fact the whole Discreet front has been very quiet of late.

      It sounds like it would be fine. I would want to know more about it. But Pasteurization is a big first step

      dog
    1. Experimental Monkey's Avatar
      Experimental Monkey -
      I'm not sure if it's widely available yet, but yeah, there's been a few dippers on Youtube that have reviewed the stuff. It's one dip I wouldn't mind doing at all. I also wouldn't feel guilty afterwords seeing as it's pasteurized.
    1. Snusdog's Avatar
      Snusdog -
      EM,

      The owner of Discreet used to post here fairly regularly. You might do a quick search of past threads, find his name and contact info and see if you can't get in touch with him. He might be able to get you a sample to review for us. You might also find out how he is distributing it (test market or full blown)

      dog
    1. Liandri's Avatar
      Liandri -
      Sounds horrible. I'm very fond of keeping things how they are here in America and no more do I need Swedens help than any other country. Quite frankly the dippers guide to snus is riddled with 100% opinion and is, in every way, misleading to honest individuals that actually might need help. I have pity on your if you used to dip and somehow got stupid as to the means and ways of oral tobacco, that you can't figure it out. A guide is supposed to be an informational tool to those with lack of information. Your guide compares apples to oranges, in in this case, fancy french wines and coffees. Your prices are 100% opinion based also because they vary from state to state.

      The chemical feeling that you had is no chemical its the physiological remembrance you have of any substance while going through withdrawal. Just like chest pains and short of breath for smokers. A runny nose for snuffers. An itchy lip for dippers and snusers. A tingle in the cheek for pipers and cigars. And biting your cheeks and tongue for crack addicts.

      You get "Dip Lip" (or gator lip) is because of your lower lip being far bigger than your upper with a wider pocket. It is a common thing for everyone to misjudge the amount they put in and for the tobacco to rub harsley against your mouth is an excessive amount of pressure. The same scenario can be observed if you put a large amount of snus in your upper lip for a week to the point of a fat little bulge on your upper lip. Nobody in their right mind has ever put ONE gram of dip in their mouth. Weigh it out, the amount is small time, compared to a nice pinch.

      Your comment on the taste is completely opinion based as well. And I wouldn't have it any other way because if everything tasted the same the world would be a very dull place.

      Swedish Match, who lists their product ingredient information on their website proves there is nothing more in dip than snus aside from flavorings. If the FDA barged into Pinkerton, seized their MSDS's and found ill chemicals in their product, Swedish Match would be at fault for illegally hiding chemicals within their products, which would stain their name more than dip on a white T-shirt. Dip may not be a food, but as a drug the FDA monitors it, as well as the EPA (which also deals in human consumption of products, and because you spit and throw out the "chemicals" and tobacco into the environment), Surgeon General and dozens of other government institutes. The secret is the aging process which, if we want to use snusdogs vs. statements Dip would actually be leagues ahead of snus still because nothing tastes better than properly aged cheese/wine/steak than crap thats just made and thrown on the shelf. Now aging foods, tobacco, liquor, etc has its own risks associated with them because of food/drugs just sitting their gaining more and more bacteria and other little nasties. But that is simply a risk that people around the world live with because of the finer and attuned tastes that come with it. That being said explains why Dip like Copenhagen contains far more TSNA's and nasties than timberwolf because Copenhagen is aged in barrels for a few years, for example.
    1. Experimental Monkey's Avatar
      Experimental Monkey -
      Quote Originally Posted by Liandri View Post
      Sounds horrible. I'm very fond of keeping things how they are here in America and no more do I need Swedens help than any other country. Quite frankly the dippers guide to snus is riddled with 100% opinion and is, in every way, misleading to honest individuals that actually might need help. I have pity on your if you used to dip and somehow got stupid as to the means and ways of oral tobacco, that you can't figure it out. A guide is supposed to be an informational tool to those with lack of information. Your guide compares apples to oranges, in in this case, fancy french wines and coffees. Your prices are 100% opinion based also because they vary from state to state.

      The chemical feeling that you had is no chemical its the physiological remembrance you have of any substance while going through withdrawal. Just like chest pains and short of breath for smokers. A runny nose for snuffers. An itchy lip for dippers and snusers. A tingle in the cheek for pipers and cigars. And biting your cheeks and tongue for crack addicts.

      You get "Dip Lip" (or gator lip) is because of your lower lip being far bigger than your upper with a wider pocket. It is a common thing for everyone to misjudge the amount they put in and for the tobacco to rub harsley against your mouth is an excessive amount of pressure. The same scenario can be observed if you put a large amount of snus in your upper lip for a week to the point of a fat little bulge on your upper lip. Nobody in their right mind has ever put ONE gram of dip in their mouth. Weigh it out, the amount is small time, compared to a nice pinch.

      Your comment on the taste is completely opinion based as well. And I wouldn't have it any other way because if everything tasted the same the world would be a very dull place.

      Swedish Match, who lists their product ingredient information on their website proves there is nothing more in dip than snus aside from flavorings. If the FDA barged into Pinkerton, seized their MSDS's and found ill chemicals in their product, Swedish Match would be at fault for illegally hiding chemicals within their products, which would stain their name more than dip on a white T-shirt. Dip may not be a food, but as a drug the FDA monitors it, as well as the EPA (which also deals in human consumption of products, and because you spit and throw out the "chemicals" and tobacco into the environment), Surgeon General and dozens of other government institutes. The secret is the aging process which, if we want to use snusdogs vs. statements Dip would actually be leagues ahead of snus still because nothing tastes better than properly aged cheese/wine/steak than crap thats just made and thrown on the shelf. Now aging foods, tobacco, liquor, etc has its own risks associated with them because of food/drugs just sitting their gaining more and more bacteria and other little nasties. But that is simply a risk that people around the world live with because of the finer and attuned tastes that come with it. That being said explains why Dip like Copenhagen contains far more TSNA's and nasties than timberwolf because Copenhagen is aged in barrels for a few years, for example.
      Are you a Copenhagen representative?
    1. Liandri's Avatar
      Liandri -
      Are you a wizard?
    1. Experimental Monkey's Avatar
      Experimental Monkey -
      Quote Originally Posted by Liandri View Post
      Are you a wizard?
      If I were wouldn't I have vanished you from these forums by now?
    1. Snusdog's Avatar
      Snusdog -
      Liandri, I know that you and I disagree on these matters and I suffer under no delusion of convincing you of my position. Nonetheless let me take a moment to work through some of this:

      Quote Originally Posted by Liandri View Post
      The chemical feeling that you had is no chemical its the physiological remembrance you have of any substance while going through withdrawal.
      What praytell was I withdrawing from? On one day, I went from fine cut lose American tobacco to fine cut lose Swedish tobacco. They are the same right? Where then is the withdrawal?


      Quote Originally Posted by Liandri View Post
      You get "Dip Lip" (or gator lip) is because of your lower lip being far bigger than your upper with a wider pocket. Nobody in their right mind has ever put ONE gram of dip in their mouth. Weigh it out, the amount is small time, compared to a nice pinch.
      Your argument is based on the assumption that you know (a) how much dip I used to use per pich and (b) how much snus I currently use per pris.

      Your assumptions are wrong.


      Quote Originally Posted by Liandri View Post
      Dip may not be a food, but as a drug the FDA monitors it, as well as the EPA (which also deals in human consumption of products, and because you spit and throw out the "chemicals" and tobacco into the environment), Surgeon General and dozens of other government institutes.
      So tell me Liandri…………what exactly is the FDA’s, EPA’s, and the Surgeons General’s opinion of Dip………………..How safe do they assess it to be?

      In turn, what do the equivalent agencies in Sweden say about snus?

      I believe you just scored on your own goal.


      Quote Originally Posted by Liandri View Post
      Now aging foods, tobacco, liquor, etc has its own risks associated with them because of food/drugs just sitting their gaining more and more bacteria and other little nasties. But that is simply a risk that people around the world live with because of the finer and attuned tastes that come with it. That being said explains why Dip like Copenhagen contains far more TSNA's and nasties
      I'm confused……………..are you still arguing against my view…………..or are you trying to help me make my case?……...cause it sounds like you just scored another point for my team.

      Anyway that would be the short response

      Hope it helps

      Dog
    1. f. bandersnatch's Avatar
      f. bandersnatch -
      I already told you knuckleheads: the problem with dip is that they fertilize the tobacco plants with cobra poop, which, of course, makes the end product super poisonous.

      Its called science, read a book.
    1. Snusdog's Avatar
      Snusdog -
      Quote Originally Posted by f. bandersnatch View Post
      I already told you knuckleheads: the problem with dip is that they fertilize the tobacco plants with cobra poop, which, of course, makes the end product super poisonous.

      Its called science, read a book.

    1. Liandri's Avatar
      Liandri -
      I'm done arguing with you. You seriously have your head so far up your ass regarding your snus zealotry its astounding. I'm actually surprised your still living to be honest. + 20 years of using a product loaded with so much hazardous waste that even a small amount of a shorter amount of time will send you to your grave and all you got out of it was a simple blemish and a wrinkled lip? Dip and snus don't need to be studied, you do. Think we got a superman over here. NEXT!

      All the agencies will say the same exact thing. Tobacco products, regardless of the form are harmful and addicted to you. Welcome to America, where everyone sues everyone and everyone with a mouth big enough gets to have hazard labels on everything thy don't like. Of course American agencies will say more horrible things because we have more opposition NOT with smokeless tobacco but with all tobacco in general. Moot point. NEXT!

      I know how much you use because you've been flaunted about your past dip "experience" all over the forum. I'm in the same boat as you, I know you're no different then any other dipper in the world. NEXT!

      And about the aging thing. for your case. But the no government agency can do a damn thing about choosing or not choosing to age/pasteurize/ferment/etc any product. The TSNA count is a moot point as well in that regards because its simply a natural byproduct that cannot change. Just like grillin' an aged steak with charcoal (highly cancer causing). NEXT~!

      Now I will absolutely agree on the fact that during our time of using, not much was known about it. Who knows? But since then, practically damn near every single book has been open about smokeless tobacco and its process. Back in the 70's-80's was a prime time disregarding Safety, labor, drug, ingredient, chemical laws so I can't comment then. However now, in this day as age, you don't have a snowballs chance in hell to prove anything of what you say aside from the one I gave you about the aging and tsna's. But I adored how you bypassed the MSDS comment because you know thats absolutely true because of the way drugs and chemicals need to be ordered and shown as per the EPA in any regard to anything that is being consumed or used as for a process for a product. Nobody will find anything. But then again we're dealing with a swedish company that was able to cause tooth rot in such a short amount of time on a product that doesn't even have tobacco in it. So who knows. By their current FDA law, they got away with distributing this product to the masses before it got revised due to the horrible injury it suffered, what'll be next? Now THATS "Swedish Purity Standard"! :-D

      Once again, adore how you act above all this though. Lick your ass, scratch your flees, get fat off kibble, and lay a bitch or two. NEXT

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